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[shavian] 10/12/2016 07:20

I just searched the BBC website for refernces to graphene, and was astonished to find only 2 links to the word this YEAR, both in April. Such ignorance. However, one of the links is an informative tech news magazine which is not a bad primer on graphene:



Lucky: can you please go back an edit your last two hyperlinks so we can all see them? Just alter the http with a capital 'H'. That will stop it coming out as hxxp once you have posted it. TIA.

And do you really conclude that now is not the time to invest in VRS, or were you talking about graphene companies in general?

[superg1] 10/12/2016 06:59

The KLF


re

Now realisation may dawn on you the executives at this Company that your earlier claims were specious but you can't scale back from your "10x" claims, oh no you have now careers,mortgages,kids in private schools fees etc etc to think about. So you maybe don't retract or deny those earlier "10x" claims but you maybe stop repeating them so vociferously or stop repeating them outright or just use some innocent press hacks to write glowing reviews and refer in passing to your earlier claims but forget to 'put them right' on the current accurate state of play.


So when a company says "we are doing 5 tonnes per year" but refuses to answer how much they are doing per day or have managed to achieve in a day it's starts unravelling. (A recent event)

Or another who say we plan to do 1.6 tonnes but the truth is they look like they can't do a gram an hour. Those would be good examples.

However here we have a company saying the can do 100 grams per day and can scale up. A whole 1/2 a kg per week. VRS are not trying to kid anyone

On the graphene side they spend a few hundred k per year. Picking on AGM again they have raised £21 million in the short time they have been around and are getting nowhere. That should be somewhere between £25 and £30 million of fund raising total within a year. To justify their existence they put out false news to show this year they have achieved a deal with the product launched which was a lie. The actual deal won't be worth very much at all perhaps 10's of 1000's at best.

Take a look at their first day on the AIM

- capital expenditure to increase production capacity to approximately eight tonnes per annum;

take a look at their last news which is 3 years on and the target is 1.6 tonnes.

I'll pick out some more points re them.

The AGM chat isn't about a competitor, there are far better competitors than AGM, it's just about my fear of PIs being conned as in the paragraph you post.

If I thought AGM was a good investment I wouldn't be picking on them I'd simply. I don't like seeing PIs being conned. Only my opinion of course.

[luckyorange] 09/12/2016 23:51

"The upshot for investors
So what's the big takeaway from all of the above? Investing in graphene may have potential at some time in the future. But as Aixtron notes, graphene's potential will not be fulfilled anytime soon. It lies far off in the medium term, or even the long term.

Given the dearth of companies discussing graphene these days, I fear the right question to ask is not "how can I invest in graphene technologies?" or "who are the best graphene companies to invest in?" The better question is whether, at this early date, you should even be trying to invest in graphene at all. And it seems to me that the answer to that question is: "No." "

(a quote out of the article)

[superg1] 09/12/2016 15:06

The KLF

Spot on and put in a way that explains the difference between an engineer or scientist caution about taking an idea form the lab to scale up. They know from countless examples that very often lab work simply does't work scaled up. The VRS CEO has some F1 experience and we all know how many things they try in F1 that don't give the expected results on the track.

Hence the VRS CEO talked of staying under the radar as while all the lab work and all the scientific papers pointed to enhanced performance they hadn't until recently proved that their GNPs worked in composites and in other ways. So now that they have proved that to them transformational.

On that point many companies haven't got to few layer GNP rates yet or proven performance, then all GNPs are not proving to be the same and will give different results or not work at all.

EG I hear some work very well with power cells and some don't but the reason for that is as yet unexplained.

Next up is that paper on the thermal capabilities where the scientists found synthetic versions did not perform well on conductivity.

The other major factor is claims of graphene nano platelets when in fact they are graphite because they are so many layers they do not perform for many uses.

So there is a load of claims 90% of which isn't graphene and then 90% of what is left as yet is not known whether it performs or not.

The big names like Goldman sachs, and industry like Hexcel clearly state there is a lack or genuine supply for a market to exist. As Hexcel state they now will only chat to folk that have a proven product with verified data to show it performs. That tells it's own story.

VRS had production of few layer and once they proved it works virtually instantly an OEM from left field very quickly jumped in and bought some with an initial plan that they want it in products within 6 months. Now they can't possibly have woken up one morning and come up with that, they clearly had an end game plan running for some time but the missing piece was viable GNPs. I'm guessing they didn't sit around having not tried the other product out there.

So I'm looking forward to the news coming about product launches as sated in recent news.

That dreaded AIM word imminent was used at one point in a recent interview. As they are coming anyway as and when why ignore the word imminent.

[theklf] 09/12/2016 12:41

A lot of people here seem to be getting waylaid or sidetracked by various claims from leftfield labs/startups/competitors etc

I'd just like to give some insight and perspective from one of my previous roles on the Board of a technology company which claimed it could do things ten or twenty times better than anybody else.

1. If somebody developed a car which could go 10x faster than any other car, it might excite the engineers/scientists/schoolboys but it would be totally impractical considering gating factors such as existing infrastructure of roads/human capabilities to deal with that speed and thus of no commercial value whatsoever.

2. You might well be able in a lab to get a product to be 10x better than everything else out there. The problem is the real world isn't a lab. Once your engineers/scientists go and talk to the potential customers engineers/scientists you find out some eye opening real world issues. e.g. you might in the lab have used a particular chemical/material but find that any real world product containing that chemical/material is forbidden for some health and safety legislation or that particular chemical/material is simply not available in commercial volumes

3. Now realisation may dawn on you the executives at this Company that your earlier claims were specious but you can't scale back from your "10x" claims, oh no you have now careers,mortgages,kids in private schools fees etc etc to think about. So you maybe don't retract or deny those earlier "10x" claims but you maybe stop repeating them so vociferously or stop repeating them outright or just use some innocent press hacks to write glowing reviews and refer in passing to your earlier claims but forget to 'put them right' on the current accurate state of play.

So in conclusion all I would say is don't believe everything you read. Place more store by how much product customers actually buy. And then even then at the end of the day Sales are vanity, Profit is reality

[luckyorange] 09/12/2016 12:28

So, in the whole world only Versarien can produce the best GNP's at affordable prices :-)

Hold on to your hats, Christmas is coming, no more monkey butt (scrag end of) stuffed with nuts for dinner if this pays off !

[superg1] 09/12/2016 12:28

Hayd followers

Another largish sell consistent with the large sell run and if it's Octopus then that must out then close to notification now re breaking 8%. Breaking that and then stopping to stop wouldn't make sense. Logic supports stopping short of that to avoid notification then let it build before you go again.

I was chatting to someone about Haydale and both of us were wondering of the Haydale exclusivity with Huntsman graphene enhanced resins had meant Haydle have shot themselves in the foot re their own acquisitions. IE Perhaps Hayd now can't enhance resins within those businesses with graphene.

"The agreement provides Huntsman with the exclusive worldwide rights to market, distribute and sell a range of its resins enhanced with Haydale functionalised graphene."

"it's" may be the saving part there.

On the Huntsman side

"Huntsman has also agreed to work exclusively with HCS to further develop graphene enhanced masterbatches with specific targeted performance characteristics"


Exclusive it seems but only for those with "specific targeted performance characteristics"

[luckyorange] 09/12/2016 08:48

hxxp://www.adsadvance.co.uk/metalysis-delivers-graphene.html "South Yorkshire based Metalysis, which is focused on commercialising its proprietary electrochemical metal powder manufacturing technology, has announced that its research and development function has successfully produced Graphene using the Company's process."

hxxp://graphene-flagship.eu/narrowing-the-gap-between-synthetic-and-natural-graphene

"With their dry-transfer process, Banszerus and his colleagues have shown that the electronic properties of CVD-grown graphene can in principle match those of ultrahigh-mobility exfoliated graphene. The key is to transfer CVD graphene from its growth substrate in such a way that chemical contamination is avoided. The high mobility of pristine graphene is thus preserved, and the approach allows for the substrate material to be recycled without degradation."

[superg1] 08/12/2016 17:58

Just to be clear that is me and my random ramblings.

I say that as some time ago I found something on another share re a change of nomad and posted it. The current nomad found out by reading what I had posted, a bit of teddy throwing by the nomad followed.

Having seen how they acted at the time it's just my curiosity re their sudden leapfrog onto the offer at 11.5p then 11.25p when they have been sitting it out on 13p up to that point.

[superg1] 08/12/2016 17:51

Just thought that was a bit random by WH and they are the nomad. No interest at all then a jump on the offer.

Are they getting the boot?

As I say random thoughts it was just a bit strange to leap over everyone like that having been doing nothing for some time not on the bid or offer.

[superg1] 08/12/2016 17:45

3 No matter when you buy you are always on a loss the moment you do it.

[luckyorange] 08/12/2016 17:32

Previously I wrote that there are no rules on AIM Shavian but someone posted that there are 2 and I can't argue with them.

1. When you buy the price goes down.

2. When you sell the price goes up.

Any other rules anyone?

[superg1] 08/12/2016 17:07

Just glad to see some posts it was getting lonely :-)

WH Ireland that had been showing no interest either way all week suddenly leapfrogged the lot onto the offer.

Nothing obvious on live sells that triggered that, perhaps a late report to come.

[shavian] 08/12/2016 17:03

Note how the buys came rushing in as soon as the mm's rode the price down at 16:00. Their chums were clearly waiting for a few strawberries. Or am I being a conspiracy theorist?

[luckyorange] 08/12/2016 16:29

Are they game playing with the sells? Anything that drives the price lower is good !

[superg1] 08/12/2016 15:21

I had to smile when I saw the Cambridge nano systems has a 15% discount Christmas sale on.

That did make me chuckle.

On a serious note a claim comes up in a rolling list that they can with their product increases composite strength by 10%.

That's synthetic GNPs and obviously doesn't perform like top down GNPs. That science paper on thermal suggested synthetic GNPs are poor for thermal too.

[superg1] 08/12/2016 11:23

Wins

With the 50k sell Wins decided they have collected enough so off the bid and on the offer.

Just passing it on re level 2 I have no interest in selling here or considerably higher.

[superg1] 08/12/2016 10:32

The sells look like they are buys once more. Dummy buys offer that price.

It seems the price is held for the disposal of the supply. Wins have not come back onto the offer all week so it seems Peel have it who have been on the offer.

[superg1] 08/12/2016 10:09

Going back to the Exeter Uni CALM event.

Day one was Victrex, Airbus and Versarein. Clearly PEEK was a topic and adding graphene.

Day two featured

EOS as mentioned in the previous post experts in additive manufacturing laser and 3D etc.

Also there

Indmatec

The first hit I got on google said

"German industrial-strength 3D printing specialists Indmatec – the pioneers of the excellent PEEK filament"

That was on the back of the announcement of a new 3D PEEK printer on the way.

Eurocoating who include coatings on PEEK

Oxford advanced surfaces same topic

And Boeing who need no introduction.

Oxford show they cover these industries.

Aerospace
Automotive
Marine
Industrial
Defence
Energy

EOS similar industries including Aerospace and Automotive


With Boeing and Airbus there the topic was clearly PEEK in the Aerospace industry 3D printing of PEEK and as the only additive producer VRS talking about GNPs in PEEK.

[superg1] 08/12/2016 09:38

Laser sintering and 3D printing.

Some of that was a topic in Exeter and I just chuckled as I checked up on the name of one to find a relevant link to add.

The company talking laser sintering and does polymers looking at additive manufacturing is EOS who are worldwide.

Now my point was to link in the video of the VRS CEO interview on the topic and on point re talking about customers and product launches.

Watch the interview first then click on the 2nd link and you will see why I laughed. A key point in the video of 3D printing and polymers is that while it's great the products to date have not been robust enough. So my guess is adding in GNPs into the process will produce viable parts. Example parts by 3D printing with graphene in them were shown on the investor day.




EOS page

[superg1] 07/12/2016 19:15

Aha

Thanks once again for the prompt. This adds more to the theory just about to sign off but checked the PDF on PEEK again and noticed something.



On the page titled property improvements look in the right hand bottom corner

It says Exeter technologies group and Centre for Additive Layer Manufacturing aka CALM.

Now that is where Airbus Victrex and VRS met up on the 7th of September the centre for additive layer manufacturing as in this PDF.

The evening dinner was sponsored by Victrex. So Airbus Victrex and VRS had a nice dinner together. It was more or less all about PEEK and adding graphene to PEEK


storage.aicod.it/portale/eurocoating/file/ESAM-HPP_-_agenda_-_200716-2-1.pdf


So on this occasion Anley I think there is a fair chance that 2 + 2 = 4

Then as in this article which was based on the get together the intent is obvious.



That also goes on about laser sintering which is in the VRS PDF and is something the VRS CEO discussed with proactive investors in an interview.

It seems Victrex are the driving force behind it as in this line.

With funding from Innovate UK, CALM and a consortium of seven other organisations led by Victrex, are exploring ways to create affordable, new high performance polymers and composite materials.

So no we don't know if they are with Victrex working on things but they have done work on PEEK and that event with them together seems more than coincidental.

[superg1] 07/12/2016 18:55

Anley

Not that I'm aware of but as stated earlier Victrex appeared with VRS and Airbus on such topics in Exeter university recently. VRS are connected to Airbus via CT engineering and the BOD member Iain Gary who is ex MD of Airbus.

The PEEK graphene patent talks highly of GNPs additives and as mentioned earlier in the patent tests with multi layer GNPs saw drops in performance in one sector of "elongation to break" in PEEK but in recent tests VRS show an increase in performance.

VRS are working with PEEK as in the pdf with results. Airbus are already using PEEK to replace metal in some applications.

As as PEEK gains in performance from the addition of GNPs it's seems fair to assume there is a chance GNPS will appear in PEEK for various applications.

So 2+2 so far seems to indicate VRS working with PEEK