Tungsten Share Discussion Threads

[dollarzpounds] 11/7/2016 17:51

Amid a sea of blue we are once again showing red . This update had better be decent ! Come on Tungsten how hard is it to lend money to cash strapped SMEs for Goodness sakes ?!!!

[manics] 11/7/2016 07:07

..or -don't tell me- they sourced them from Odey who will post a reduction RNS later this week (!)There's always a story with these holding RNS's when the reported volume doesn't support them.

[manics] 11/7/2016 07:03

Hello Hadron. Stskebuilding at uber low sentiment -let's hope they start a trend.

[pkarnezis] 10/7/2016 23:06

chemistdude, andrewdbl thank you both!

[andrewdbl] 10/7/2016 22:10

PK, my views may be coloured by second hand experience but at my $job

- most people who use Salesforce hate it
- the manager of the team that uses Salesforce likes it

personally, (not using it) I have no views either way.

What concerns me is that this may be a bit of a nuclear bike shed issue for the BOD
(

Recent events (Chilcot) underline how important two important things are:-

- proper process
(ET - looking at you. RH and team the initial signs were/are good)

- rapid and accurate communication of facts on the ground to the centre
(ET - looking at you again. RH and team the initial signs were/are hopeful and I understand that keeping people in the UK, US, K-L and India all on the same page and happy is a challenge but is seems they need to do better here)

CD, liked the last section in k braim's summary - a good fit with TUNG

PRINCE2 & ITIL experienced, with strong experience of applying best practice frameworks and methods.
Highly motivated by roles requiring significant business & IT transformation. Experienced at building IT strategies and technology roadmaps. Previous experience includes the setup and operation of large IT Captive Offshore centres.

[chemistdude] 10/7/2016 19:27

pkarnezis did you note the hire of Kevin Braim as Head of Technology operations? Started in April:



Def worth a question re: technology stack development progress during the conference call.

[andrewdbl] 07/7/2016 11:56

CD

Not sure - if the invoice is approved, I think tung has an informational advantage (a permanent deep and wide moat) in that process as they can properly understand the risk in a way others cannot without expending a lot of effort / money on a case by case basis.

I would hope that PV has spotted that we should be able to borrow at an AAA credit rating (GE's) - ~2-5% - and lend at your credit card rate - ~12-20%

Tung should be getting big fat enduring margins here - but admittedly it looks like on a float in the few millions, so the profit might not be enormous.

If they don't make money here it is down to incompetence.

On non-approved invoices things get trickier - more open to loss / fraud / mis-pricing of risk / etc - tung has less advantage here.

However, CD, as you say this is where the beeelions lie

And - thinking about it - tung does have an informational advantage here in that they know when that invoice is approved, or should be approved.

Personally, I want to be bored while reading the results, will be happy if they say
loss this yr ~18.75m
cashflow +ve in H2 16/17
small loss of 2.5-5m at eoy 16/17.

[chemistdude] 06/7/2016 22:52

Looks like Prabhat is thinking of differentiating the Financing Product; he's divided the customer base into verticals and segments and wants to give each individual sector what they want according to their needs - his banking experience coming into play here.

As for pre-approved invoices, this is really interesting. Expected and actual TEP take up is 8-10% of invoices from TEP customers signed up. These are currently invoices that are marked approved and/or have PDD attached.

Prabhat is suggesting he wants to eventually expand and go on to finance invoices that have just been submitted to Tungsten that are not necessarily processed/approved - major widening of the customer base to virtually ALL INVOICES. It makes sense, there's supplier payment history, buyers are all blue chips AAA rated, we have purchase orders (and potentially goods receipts?). Construction industry could could certainly make use of having the money much earlier.

Pre-approved = longer financing period = more money?

Seems like a game changer to me. Could it make up for the last couple of years of delays? In the words of dollarspounds, have we finally found the matches and ready to ignite/scale up massively?!

2.5 weeks to July 25th results.

[andrewdbl] 06/7/2016 19:44

the last sentence in the interview

DG: do you see yourself moving into other forms of finance – beyond approved invoices?
PV: In the early days I am focused on scaling up approved invoices. Conceptually speaking, I see value in certainly extending along the trade flows from approved invoices to pre approved invoices.

... pre approved invoices!?

[pkarnezis] 06/7/2016 17:19

This is interesting. Prabhat Vira talks:

spendmatters.com/tfmatters/where-tungsten-finance-goes-next-an-interview-with-prabhat-vera/

[bs76] 06/7/2016 16:33

GSA reduced to 0.47% on 21st June. So they must be still around.

Numeric did went to zero. so they are definitely out.

And all the small short holders are still holding. It's good that they are still- we need some short covering if we (ever) get any good news :)

--Bank sale news by Sept
--TEP pick up on Vira's new plan
--cashburn reduction from 1m per month to 0.5m per month as revenue from new buyers or price increase

[1gw] 06/7/2016 13:31

Euroclear June data shows average shares on loan went up slightly from May. This is despite Numeric's and Oxford's declared reductions in their short positions on 31st May. So does that suggest the slack has been taken up by other (non-declared) shorters?

Jan'16 9.7m shares on loan (average)
Feb'16 10.8m
Mar'16 10.8m
Apr'16 10.0m
May'16 10.6m
Jun'16 10.7m

[pkarnezis] 04/7/2016 14:59

andrewdbl:

I think of TEP along the same lines as you. It's not rocket surgery. Just three references plucked out of the internet re invoice finance:

"More than 44,000 businesses receive over £19 billion of funding this way at any one time, according to the Asset Based Finance Association, which represents the invoice finance industry in the UK."



"Factoring achieves all-time high in 2015: 2,373 billion euros, up 1.4% from 2014"

www.abfa.org.uk/news/118/Global-Factoring-Volume-reaches-all-time-high.html

"...it's also a well known fact that the main problem with an overdraft is that it is repayable on demand and can be withdrawn at anytime. Also, the limit is usually fixed and, should more be required, you generally have to go through the whole application process again."

www.skiptonbusinessfinance.co.uk/invoice-discounting/invoice-discounting-or-bank-overdraft

[andrewdbl] 04/7/2016 14:07

On TEP
over a grey lunchtime thinking over a post somewhere else that went (paraphrasing)

"Not sure what the point of TEP is as a bank OD will probably be cheaper and if it isn't it means TUNG cannot be making money"

My outline answer is (please correct me if wrong)

Bank OD rates (in a near zirp environment) pretty much reflect the risk of the borrower defaulting plus the cost of paperwork.

Most enterprises - ones that have a proper finance team managing receipts and payment timing - probably do not run an OD except in times of true emergency as that is a cost to the business

So, I think Small Cos are more likely to use the facility (limits the market, but did you really think Seimens would make extensive use of TEP?)

I think TEP is against an invoice that has been approved.
The TEP rate here (in a near zirp environment) I think pretty much reflects the risk of the counterparty defaulting plus the cost of paperwork.

In the TUNG network, if one side wants TEP, the counterparty must be on the network too.
One hopes that TUNG (or whoever TUNG uses) are able to assess the risk of the counterparty and (hopefully) all other things being equal, that counterparty will be less risky than the actual borrower.

One would also hope that in the same manner as the challenger banks, TEP's management costs will be lower than the management cost of an OD

So I think they should be able to find a market (Obviously not beelions but sizeable)and make it profitable.

Any criticism welcome

[andrewdbl] 01/7/2016 17:43

CD

Saw the updated website while in France.
I can say the internationalisation works and my french needs improvement.

[manics] 30/6/2016 15:40

My mistake -thanks.

[chemistdude] 30/6/2016 14:10

Hi Manics, no not Connie it was Cynthia the IR lady

[manics] 30/6/2016 13:03

chemist: I thought you mentioned somewhere that Connie had left Tungsten, no?

[bs76] 30/6/2016 12:15

yes - just one point- the first post numbers are global ranking.

Alexa doesn't post actual number of visitors but i suppose ranking algorithm must be based on number of visitors

[pkarnezis] 30/6/2016 11:38

Great. Thanks bs76. It gives a different picture, doesn't it? So about 90% of the 153k visitors to Tungsten's website are, roughly speaking, customers who log in to the portal. And about 72% of 187.5k in Taulia's case. At the other end, only about 16% of Basware's 321k website visitors are actual customers.

The game is all to play for.

[bs76] 30/6/2016 11:18

just tried pk.

It just remove's "portal." or "go." and get data from tungsten-network.com or tradeshift.com

but on overview of each site, i can find that bit and portal.tungsten-network.com is doing better

Where do visitors go on tungsten-network.com?
Subdomain Percent of Visitors
portal.tungsten-network.com 89.73%
tungsten-network.com 44.34%
test.tungsten-network.com 1.92%

Where do visitors go on tradeshift.com?
Subdomain Percent of Visitors
tradeshift.com 59.09%
go.tradeshift.com 47.93%
blog.tradeshift.com 4.84%
support.tradeshift.com 4.75%
get.tradeshift.com 2.48%


Where do visitors go on basware.com?
Subdomain Percent of Visitors
basware.com 29.88%
fs.basware.com 17.50%
portal.basware.com 16.27%
confluence.basware.com 14.98%
support.basware.com 11.38%

Where do visitors go on taulia.com?

Subdomain Percent of Visitors
portal.taulia.com 72.33%
taulia.com 24.74%
resources.taulia.com 5.51%
hosted-jira.taulia.com 3.02%
confluence.taulia.com 2.62%

Where do visitors go on ariba.com?

Subdomain Percent of Visitors
service.ariba.com 62.38%
s1.ariba.com 46.70%
ariba.com 14.51%
uex.ariba.com 2.26%
s1-eu.ariba.com 2.11%

[pkarnezis] 30/6/2016 11:09

Thanks bs76.

It'd be interesting to compare traffic to the portals, too, if you have access to Alexa and it's possible. i.e.

portal.tungsten-network.com
portal.basware.com
go.tradeshift.com
portal.taulia.com

That might give us an idea of invoice volumes, trends etc.

[bs76] 30/6/2016 10:53

Tungsten site is gaining momentum as per Alexa website. It's able to beat Tradeshift.

In last 6 months
Tungsten-network.com - 152855 => 103868
tradeshift.com - 129113 => 117998
taulia.com - 187495 => 127659
basware.com - 321161 => 179242

and still way behind
Ariba.com - 25143 => 14500

Overall e-invoicing companies are gaining momentum.

[bs76] 30/6/2016 10:21

thx chemist.