Treveria Share Discussion Threads

[red army] 15/10/2012 13:58

Well the first leg of the stool has come off.

[praipus] 11/10/2012 13:52

Curious goings on at Dolphin Capital DCI getting into bed with Dan Loebs' Third Point Hedge Fund just wonder if the same could happen here?

[cerrito] 01/10/2012 22:04

Good find Yieldsearch on that article which refers to Silo E-the second largest silo and last year the worst performing ie I am trying to convince myself that the other silos are not as bad.
I am rather spooked that in the Interims there is no reference at all in their success in selling properties so we assume it is going very slowly.
On the issue of the RETT, the wording of their Sept 23 2010 RNS quoted below to me contrasts with the more cautious tone I have picked up recently.
In any event there is a case for buying shares at this price but I cannot muster the enthusiasm.

RNS Sept 23 12
In last year's Annual Report we explained that Treveria Holdings S.à.r.l. may be subject to a potential liability for German RETT and made a provision in the amount of €40.2 million in the consolidated financial statements. We also stated in last year's Annual Report that our legal advisers informed us that, in the event the RETT was deemed to be payable, the likelihood of the authorities having any actual recourse to the assets of Treveria plc was remote. This view has been re-confirmed by our lawyers. Our lawyers have also confirmed that the RETT based on the applicable law in Luxembourg is not enforceable at present against Treveria Holdings S. à.r.l.. Whether the "European Council Directive 2008/55/EC on mutual assistance for the recovery of claims relating to certain levies, duties, taxes and other measures" ("Recovery Directive") will change this legal situation in Luxembourg in the foreseeable future is unclear. In the Isle of Man, the RETT is not presently enforceable and the Recovery Directive is not expected to be implemented in the Isle of Man.



We have taken the decision to relocate our present Luxembourg holding companies, Treveria Holdings S.à.r.l. and Treveria Properties S.à.r.l. from Luxembourg to the Isle of Man, where Treveria plc is already domiciled. This move will streamline the corporate structure of the Treveria Group, improve management controls and simplify our legal environment. Once this move is implemented, based on our legal advice, the €40.2 million provision in our next financial statements (year ending 31 December 2010) will be removed. Instead this will be noted as a contingent liability, which will not be deducted from the Group's net assets.



Irrespective of the advice that RETT is not presently enforceable in Luxembourg or in the Isle of Man, we continue to challenge the assessment of the RETT on various legal grounds. We shall also be initiating a relief procedure with the relevant German fiscal authorities.

[yieldsearch] 01/10/2012 21:30

Cerrito: i dont think it is related to the location of the parent company, more to do with intragroup transfer that triggered that tax. i think they stated in the past that this tax should not be a concerned as the tax authorities would not have access to the assets.

found this on the company, second part of the article

it does no look good: short lease, high vacancy

[cerrito] 01/10/2012 17:13

Does anyone here understand why having been told in the last couple of years the RETT is not an issue as the company involved is in the IOM it is now an issue?
If they do appreciate clarification
Thanks

[robizm] 28/9/2012 13:16

I cannot see them lasting much longer before they get wound up and give us some cash back.

These accounts take a lot of reading so will go over them later.

[praipus] 28/9/2012 10:22

From the interims


"Other developments
As reported in the 2011 Annual Report and Accounts, the German tax authorities declined Treveria Holdings Limited request for RETT (Real Estate Transfer Tax) relief. We have been advised that there is a strong case for having the assessments withdrawn, so we have applied to the German fiscal court for a ruling. Accordingly, we continue to hold a provision of only EUR1 million, although the contingent liability remains at EUR39.9 million.

Outlook
The future development of the Company is dependent on the outcome of the re-financing negotiations, our success in completing sales, and resolving the RETT issue."

[praipus] 16/8/2012 20:39

From the SRE thread

AAAInvestment 6 Jul'12 - 12:29 - 52 of 53

Don't be fooled by the European doom and gloonm, Germany is still expanding, this from the telegraph coverage of the crisis today:

"11.13 German industrial output data is out, and it's smashed expectations. It was thought that we'd see growth of 0.1pc, but it's taken a 1.6pc leap month-on-month. "

Sirius are in a great position to make a major recovery when the Euro problem is sorted and all Germany's export markets resume their high demand and manner from heaven if the German's themselves start to spend (which is what we really want as a stimulus). Workspace will attract a higher premium, Germany have also been looking East for new export markets in yhe midet of all the turmoil - as always seems to be the case they will end up winners economically.

It's not all doom and gloom LOL.

[cerrito] 26/7/2012 08:33

so no surprise that we got our third notice of a standstill
Probably will not hear much till the interims which will come out some time in September-probably very much at the later end

[praipus] 20/7/2012 10:37

Stand still agreement

[cerrito] 16/7/2012 09:13

I am not concerned about Metro per se more the sluggishness of property demand for German retail.

[praipus] 16/7/2012 09:04

Thanks Cerrito I'm not sure Metro is something to be concerned about.

[cerrito] 16/7/2012 08:40

We will be getting another RNS probably next Monday on the situation with Silo D- maturing on July 20th and on Monday fortnight with Silo F/K maturing on July 25.I am assuming that these announcements will be the same as that for today- ie talks continue.
Praipus: Page 17 of

[praipus] 10/7/2012 22:22

Cerrito can you post the link to where you found the Metro info please?

I've searched the Dec 11 finals and interims and can find no mention of Metro.

[cerrito] 10/7/2012 21:33

Recent stories that waning consumption in Germany will have a significant impact on the business of Metro reminded me of TRV. As at June 30 2011-the last figures we have-Metro accounted for 20% of their rent roll; no question of Metro defaulting on their lease obligations as I understand it but given that retail seems to be a very large proportion of TRV assets may mean that will be a hard slog filling the voids- a high 13.8% at 31.12.11. Could not find any recent information on the proportion of TRV's portfolio which is in retail.

[cerrito] 07/6/2012 17:26

Just been through the annual report to see if there was any additional information and it is identical to the RNS.

[cerrito] 06/6/2012 08:29

I should add that did not acknowledge that they did do what they did not do in the last couple of years and have full financial information on the parent's finances, something I more than welcome.

[ydderf] 06/6/2012 07:42

cerrito my view is that the statement deliberately makes no attempt to reassure (obviously this would have been an option), but markedly more optimistic statements over the past 18 months have proven inconsequential, so it is immaterial.

it is probably wise not to be too open about strategy whilst conducting negotiations with lenders

given the concentration of the ownership of the shares, i am assuming that this project is being managed as entrepreneurially as humanly possible and that the stakeholders will play their hand to maximum advantage

...to the parallel benefit of the 'outside' shareholders

[cerrito] 05/6/2012 18:31

Ran through the final figures
Not happy about several things: fact that external valuation done by in house management company;staff costs up to E5.1m compared to E3m in 2009-I understood their point a couple of years back about increasing their infrastructure but this is a big jump; my nose rather put out of joint by the very taciturn comments from the |Chairman and CEO...I can understand why given that the top 7 shareholders own 76% of the shares and they probably find people like me a pain; would have been good to know why the parent saw fit to advance E14m to its subs last year up and concerned with the run down in cash; no insight into their views of the German property market.
Rather confused by the talk on the RETT; we were told that as Treveria Holdings Ltd in the IOM( see RNS 23 Sept 2010) it is outside the scope of the German Tax authorities so why were not reminded of this this year.? Perhaps I was naive but I had discounted this so was rather concerned to see its prominent status in the Chairman's statement. Do not understand why contingent liability went up from E32m to E39.9m.
I note that all bank loans mature in H2 12 and that 4 out of 6 are in breach of their LTV; I was initially somewhat surprised at this following the Oct 10 11 RNS that Silo E-the ABN one-had been extended for three years. This was subject to certain covenants being met. One assumes that these have not been but I would have preferred more transparency on this in Thursday's announcement. I do note from Note 4 that Silo E's valuation had been hit more in 2011 than D's and F/K's. As well that E's Net Rental Income fell quite a bit between 2011 and 2010- from E27.8m to E25.3m. This compared to a modest increase for D and a modest decrease for F/K. As long as D and E they can continue to pay the parent its asset management fees and the interest rate is capped at 3%,reasonably relaxed.
At one level the price is attractive given the huge discount but left with the feeling that we are not being told the full story-especially with the RETT.
If others have a different take look forward to hearing from you.

[praipus] 31/5/2012 18:46

I bought a few more today.

Thinking if they ever achieve todays NAV I'll have a 10 bagger on my hands if not a small loss.

I'm ignoring the older purchases (72% loss luckily I didnt bet the farm)...sunk costs effect etc

[praipus] 31/5/2012 16:07

Thanks skanjete2.

[skanjete2] 31/5/2012 14:03

NAV approx 49c.
The current share price is about the value of the cash at the parent level. Even if their cash trapped silo's (D, E, F/K) prove to be completely worthless, one can expect to get approx 11c a share from the parent cash plus silo G and silo J.
If they can save silo D and E, this could amount to another 20c/share.
Silo F/K stands for the rest, but is more doubtful.

This looks very cheap with acceptable risk. It seems unlikely they'll be able to cristallise the complete NAV, but at the current share price this doesn't matter...

[praipus] 31/5/2012 13:00

what is the NAV here?

[envirovision] 29/5/2012 19:01

I guess buying in at present could be an interesting hedge on euro breakup

[praipus] 29/5/2012 13:45

Have late results ever been good news for shareholders?

Better than expected results coinciding with a cheeky RNS disclosing a takeover offer at NAV +25% for example?