Torotrak Share Discussion Threads

[underhill] 19/5/2016 14:46

BBC Inside Science - Solar farm, Gravity machine, Kakapo - @bbcradio4


Very brief mention (starts @ 7:10) of using flywheels to store solar energy.

[lefrene] 19/5/2016 12:50

The non price action suggests that this one has cried "gold" about 50 times too often, and then had nothing to show for it. Show me a signed contract with a major T1 or OEM, then I will believe. If the widget is indeed the family jewels, then lets hope all the majors will want it! After all, that's what this research lab was supposed to be all about.

[jpjp100] 19/5/2016 08:37

It is the best news we have had from TRK for a long time

I don't go as far as to say it is good news, but it is the closest we have been to that

I can understand why the RNS release isn't littered with test data: that is for Engineers at T1s and OEMs more than for shareholders and should be directed as such. I expect the details will surface in due course.

It is still a long way from University bench tests to a car showroom, but the CEO seems to think he can do something with it based on the test results. Let's see

It is hard to get excited after so many false starts and nearlies

[jovi1] 17/5/2016 11:17

Hi supernumerary
I do agree with you but like all the share there is a risk reward and after today news the believe the balance swing little on the reward site
Looking at market cap if, and agree it is a big if, this technology will be taken on one year the royalty alone can be worth more than the market cap.
Surely not putting my mortgage on this but few on the site in hope of a multi bragger do not the like, like many new tech one think is for sure the current share price is wrong as this can be worth many times more or nothing at all.
Good luck you all

[supernumerary] 17/5/2016 09:29

I'm afraid I remain unconvinced. Does anybody know what was actually tested here? As far as I can tell it was a clutched V-charge unit operating continuously at 'low' revs, with a turbocharger at high revs - is that right?

This was compared to a standard single-turbo Ecoboost, and an Ecoboost with an added mechanical supercharger? Why was it not tested against a current state of the art twin-stage turbo unit? Or an electrical boost unit of the type Volvo and Audi are using? They say it's better than either, but don't appear to have actually tested it, and certainly don't give comparative test results.

Of the target parameters, the two against mechanical superchargers can surely be ignored, since there isn't the slightest evidence that anyone will ever use them. The torque figures look good, but are only the same as the current Ecoboost, albeit achieved at lower revs. Nice, but I suspect Ford can achieve 90% of the benefit at significantly lower cost and complexity by using a small turbo.

It will be interesting to see what eventually emerges from this. Another grant and another study is my guess...

[lefrene] 17/5/2016 08:57

Perhaps a product that the car industry might actually take a butchers at? Indeed we do look forward to signing license agreements with major car producers!

[fredd] 17/5/2016 08:31

Hopefully not too variable...

[alchemy] 17/5/2016 08:17

Traction at last.

[bodgit] 17/5/2016 07:44

Posted this on another board:

That news is the best I have read from Torotrak for a long time. Well done to all involved for getting this far with V-Charge. Yes, there still is a 'way to go' to get the shareholder returns we so richly deserve after so many false starts. It is looking good and fingers crossed the T1s and OEMs give this technology the attention it seems to warrant. Interesting to see how the share price responds today. Good luck all.

[bhoddhisattva] 17/5/2016 07:28

But why not put some figures and real data on the results in the headline or the first few paragraphs?
Why hide behind "achieved targets" or some such waffle?
Why make folk read all the way down to the supporting paragraphs to understand WHAT it actually achieved or showed?

The PR dept should be fired for this incompetent release that fails to make the benefits and value clear high up.

[fredd] 17/5/2016 07:13

After a quick read, I am (for once) encouraged by the V Charge RNS and look forward to reading the first road test impressions when they appear.

[lefrene] 13/5/2016 09:47

I thought it was supposed to be some time in July, that real world test info would be available. Not sure why it has to take so long.

[angus17] 13/5/2016 08:32

is the lack of V charge news another sign of failure.

what happened to the end of April news flow?

clinging on in here

[lefrene] 10/5/2016 15:57

I guess in the end Alchemy it always comes down to cost. These multi speed automated manuals must have an awful lot of parts in them, but I suppose the makers are so practised at making them that they can keep shaving the costs, as it's cheaper to do so than invest in new production facilities for something which has yet to be commercially proved.

The game will only change when the OEM's decide that it really is time to bring in something that really is new. Cars have become so androgynous that one can barely tell one from another, just slitty eyed plastic looking bubbles, most of them. They all seem remarkably similar to ride in, for me the deciders are reliability, running costs, and ease of use.

If the diesel FIAT Panda I have been loaned is anything to go by, then low running costs means sacrificing 'ease of use', plus it looks like one of those vehicles designed to expire completely at a pre-set point. By which I mean it will be beyond economical repair either at 15 years or 150,000 miles. The turbo lag on it is dreadful, (the turbo has been serviced) it reminds me of the first small Ford buses to use a turbo diesel in the early 70's.

As for TRK, it is simply at the vagaries of the major OEM's. I thought when Univance were said to be tooling up for discs and rollers, that they must have been expecting orders, but that is several years ago now. The only bright spot on the horizon are the USA fuel economy regulations, but they too are still several years away.

Incidentally an article in last Sunday's Observer claimed that a university study indicates that the extra pollutants from electric cars outweighed their 'clean' advantage over the latest petrol cars. Apparently lecky hybrids are on average 25% heavier than petrol cars, thus producing more particles in tyre waste and also more particles from the brake pads.

It would seem that the people who went to meet the management recently came away with no false hinted promises, that has been the stock in trade of the previous over paid non achievers. Perhaps that in itself is a breath of fresh air?

[alchemy] 08/5/2016 13:48

I read about the new 1.5 litre VW tsi engine. Turbo chips in at 1.3k . And just as dsg 7s and MBs 9 speed gearboxes approach infinitely variable I start to wonder if 1.3 incroaches on v-power?I hope not, I trust Ford at least can counter others using it, but is history a guide?

[bodgit] 06/5/2016 15:42

Thanksamillion, no worries, I absolutely do not take it personally and if I did it is my problem not yours. For the avoidance of doubt, my post, insofar as I spoke about the record of TRK failing to deliver, was not tongue in cheek. Anyway, the weather up here in the depths of East Yorkshire has improved with temperatures into comfortable double figures so have been out on the bike twice today already and one more trip early evening should enable me to enjoy a seriously big evening meal and a glass or two of good German wine without a smidge of guilt! Cheers and good weekend to all.

[thanksamillion] 06/5/2016 14:43

Bodgit, my post was a bit tongue-in-cheek, please dont take it personally.

[bodgit] 06/5/2016 13:49

Thanksamillion, er, I was most certainly not suggesting anyone should sell, or buy or hold having read my 'venting' posting here. I know what my intentions now are and if anyone else should do the same, that is their own choice and it would be a coincidence as I have not said what are my current intentions. I will say that in all my years of investing from the early '80's till now, this company has been the most given to making statements which for me have created expectations and so many of them have not been sustained (e.g. Infinitrak/Rotrex) or even materialised (e.g.bankable deal in 2004)and may never do so while bonuses a plenty (until recently) have been paid out on top of salaries which imho seem to have been over generous. The road so far has been littered with failures and I cannot recall anyone accepting accountability and responsibility for any of them. The ability of Directors over 18 years or so to 'bury' or externalise bad news has been evident. History is not destiny of course though the future here looks tough. Good luck all.

[thanksamillion] 06/5/2016 12:35

Super - I can't disagree with any of that!

In particular the mpg improvement problem has been recently highlighted when TRK reported a 11 or 12% certified mpg improvement on the bus KERS production ready version 2, and that's after the Mad Max driver obtained similar results from the model 1.
The next version - I thought V.2 was the production model... hopes to achieve 14%, but against what comparitor?

Seems what appears to be pretty average engineers, just cannot develop these products fast enough, quickly throwing more cash at the development depts. might have helped in the past, however it seems Else, Deering, Barter et-al decided the correct place for most of it was in their payslips.

At this point I could write some supportive thoughts on the changes since the new CEO took over, that however might be construed as positive comment, so I wont.

[supernumerary] 06/5/2016 11:35

I don't see any sign that the real world mpg can be improved. What's the advantage of ivt over a modern 8 or 9 speed dct (let alone the 10-speed that Ford's just announced)? Anything gained in having more ratios disappears in parasitic losses in the rotor. Even worse is that it's obvious nobody likes or wants them - the obloquy directed at every single cvt I've ever seen reviewed makes it clear that there's a mountain to climb before any such device will ever be considered for passenger cars.

As for V-charge, compared to the latest turbos it's almost certainly bigger, more expensive, more complex, more difficult to integrate with the engine and management system, and less efficient. The idea of a variable speed supercharger is an appealing one, but it has to be driven off the engine, and so it's wasting energy all the time it's running and isn't needed. Recognising the problem, trk inserts a clutch, but that only adds to the cost and complexity.

trk has always been very reluctant to give comprehensive mpg figures against current opposition. It always seems to be the case that what emerges is that they're 15% better than whatever was the state of the art competition 3 years previously. Then it takes them 3 years to develop the prototype for the next test...

Tam - I help where I can ;¬)

[thanksamillion] 06/5/2016 11:01

Well Bodgit, you seemed to have persuaded a couple to ditch.

As a contrarian holder watching the technicals, all this negativity is good news.

[lefrene] 06/5/2016 10:13

Bodgit, I think from the get go they should have raised public awareness by having a demo vehicle with a large 'read out' on the roof advertising the actual economy CO2. Unfortunately the company was too craven to risk the ire of the OEM's, but all they have earned is the derision and scorn of those OEM's.

By now they might at least have a business putting ivt into taxi cabs, from which other interest would have followed.

It could just be that the new management at TRK are not in the business of raising false hopes, which was the stock in trade of the last two at the trough.

It's still not too late to put a demo vehicle on the road, after all what has TRK got to lose? Put it in a diesel with a V charge and show how the real world mpg can be improved. With the move towards autonomous vehicles, I should think ivt would be ideal, as the passenger is no longer engaged with the progress of the vehicle, and just wants smooth seamless reliability. Very likely individual car ownership will fall off, and cars will be operated by 'Uber' type businesses who will want the lowest possible running costs.

[bodgit] 06/5/2016 09:44

Having read the Trading Update and four reports from the recent TPSA meeting, it is difficult not to conclude that after 18 years and many tens of millions of pounds, Torotrak remains a long way away from being a sustainable business. More projects kicked down the road a little (JCB?) or further on(Wrightbus?)or into the very long grass (Volvo/ETBM/Allison?) which likely will disappear without trace. Any volume production looks 4+ years away. At the current seeming rate of progress/spend, fundraising time may come around yet again. I really hope not but as this is Torotrak and it is difficult to recall any positive expectations created that have actually come to fruition (M-KERS for buses being just the latest of many)and been sustained, I conclude the technology will at best enjoy a low level take up and I will never see all my investment recovered. I'm off. Good luck all.

[willoicc] 28/4/2016 22:38

The emissions scandal shows the reality of so called EU regulation.

You would think that testing for emissions was a No1 candidate for testing by an independent government agency. But no. The car companies were allowed to self test. Lo and behold, they cheated.

The EU loves to make rules and regulation that they know only the Brits will bother to comply with.

[supernumerary] 28/4/2016 18:08

lefrene - I think they'll all be risk-averse and capital budget limited for the next year or two. A really tough environment in which to introduce new and untried technology.

The emissions scandal grows worse with every passing week. Next I expect (or at least hope) one or more of the European Commissioners will step in and say all car companies must give Europeans the same deal they're giving Americans. And all German car companies must give other Europeans the same deal they're giving Germans. Apart from the fact they've been poisoning us all for years, the way they're currently handling the situation is an absolute disgrace.