|sp`s drift down on lack of news - positive news on HMRC and sale of pools will do wonders for the share price - not sure its good enough to go over a 100p time will tell?|
|i think its probably just the delay to the court ruling i would of hoped this would have occurred by now cant be far off presumably this heads towards 100p when they finally get HMRC to go away and bother someone else!|
|Must be Brexit then|
|The share price has fallen 10p in the blink of an eye. Yet, very low volume of trades so doesn't look like inside knowledge about the VAT case.|
|We've had delays in the past because of the shortage of judicial resources. If they need to pick low priority cases to defer this would be one.Having had time to make my decision, I think the analogy to roulette is a strong one. In STB the player is guessing where a ball will be placed; in roulette the player is guessing where a ball will land. The main differences are: (a) the number of possible outcomes is much larger in STB and (b) the physical distance between the player and the dealer.It is well known that skilled roulette dealers will 'place' the ball using their skill.|
|Any idea when we will hear the decision of the Supreme Court? - if it really is going to be the autumn then within 6 weeks?|
|Quite a drop - shake ahead of good news or insider leak because of bad news.
Happy to hold as this is ripe for a TO even after the pools stuff has gone to their mates|
|tree shaking by MM or something more serious??|
|Thanks NOD for some great posts - Mr Justice Norris we can say took a very narrow definition and his decision was reversed by the Court of Appeal by unanimous decision.
It seems odd that in their notices HMRC describe it as a game but in Court argue otherwise.|
|The other way around.A game of chance is exempt from VAT. HMRC argues STB was a game of skill and subject to VAT.We always have to remember it is the tax rules and definitions at the dates above that apply.The only Court/Tribunal to rule in favour of HMRC was the Second Tier where the judge decided Spot the Ball was not a game at all and people who played STB were not playing."For these reasons I would allow the appeal. Operators of "Spot the Ball" competitions are not providing facilities for the playing of games of chance so as to fall within the Exemption. There is no "game": and completing and posting a coupon is not "playing". TRIBUNAL JUDGE: Mr Justice Norris|
|Think hmrc have said it's a game of chance but SPO have argued it's a games of skill.
Think that's where the arguement is based.|
|HMRC have called Spot the Ball a game|
|The relevant VAT rules and definitions will be for (a) the period 23 April 1979 to 30 April 1997 and (b) to the period 1 May 1997 to 31 December 2006|
|Is Spot the Ball more like dice and roulette or more like chess and athletics?Looking at the new May 2016 VAT rules it specifically refers to roulette as being a game of chance and therefore exempt from VAT.Of course it's the rules at the time that are relevant to HMRC. 3.1 What is a game of chance?'Game of chance' is defined in Note 2 of Group 4 of Schedule 9 to the Value Added Tax Act 1994. Essentially, it is either a game of:* pure chance, such as dice or roulette, where the result cannot be influenced by the player* chance and skill combined, such as whist or rubber bridge, where the player either cannot eliminate chance or can only do so by exercising superlative skillThese supplies are exempt from VAT.Many other games including any athletic games or sports are not regarded as games of chance. The supply of a right to play games of skill, such as:certain spot-the-ball competitions (see paragraph 2.6)duplicate bridge, andchesshttps://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70129-betting-gaming-and-lotteries/vat-notice-70129-betting-gaming-and-lotteries|
|Is Roulette a game when a legal 'definition' is applied? I would think not because it is more akin to a lottery under which the Gambling Act of 2005 applies (and hence arguments over whether or not it is a game is irrelevant with respect to the arguments pertaining to Sportech and STB).
The fact that in SPB the competition is based, in effect, randomness, does qualify that the competition is indeed based on 'chance'. Little argument there. But the question is "is it a game?"
A google search will provide numerous examples, many of which contradict each other and most of which are far too generalised for a legal basis.
Imagine you had to write a dictionary definition of the word 'game', what would you come up with?|
|Is roulette a game?I see Spot the Ball as similar. You are not competing against other players, you are playing against the House. In our case a former football player places a pin hole representing the centre of a fictitious ball. The second tier judge appeared to be ruling that to be a game players had to be interacting with each other.Roulette players don't interact with other players. What other players do has no bearing on whether you win or not.Same with Spot the Ball.|
|Nod - The hardest thing to understand is the decision of the second tier VAT tribunal their decision made no real sense. I expect the Supreme Court to uphold the Court of Appeal decision after all interpretation of the application of the wording of statute should be done on a literal basis and spot the ball is surely a game of chance. The second tier rejected it was a game arguing a game has to be interactive
the Court of Appeal rejected this unanimously this is a question of fact the Supreme
Court who have an extensive backlog of cases are there not to look at facts but to look at the way the law has been applied. It also looks to take on cases of public interest its hard to see apart from the large sum of tax money involved that there is any public interest. Having said all this we can never be a 100% sure when the law is involved.|
|It has been a long wait for the Supreme Court decision. As we enter October it must be getting close. Here's a reminder of the situation:"Sportech confirms that Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs ("HMRC") has paid Sportech GBP93 million in relation to the VAT repayment claim on the "Spot the Ball" game. The balance of approximately GBP4 million will be paid to Sportech in the event of a successful final determination.Sportech is awaiting a decision from the Supreme Court as to whether HMRC has been granted the right to appeal to the Supreme Court against the Court of Appeal's unanimous decision in favour of Sportech."If HMRC is granted the right to appeal (expected by Autumn 2016), and in the event that the Supreme Court overturns this unanimous decision, and issues judgment in favour of HMRC (potentially late 2017/early 2018), these monies together with any related interest would need to be repaid.|
|Investors Chronicle view - HoldThe oldest football gaming business in the world looks set to gain a new lease of life via the launch of a new Alternative Investment Market (Aim)-traded company. Gaming businessSportech (SPO) has been approached by venture capital house Burlywood Capital with a £100m offer for its 93-year-old football pools business.Burlywood, a fund set up by Sportingbet founder Mark Blandford and former investment banker Andrew Burnett, is aiming to float the new entity on Aim, which would house the pools business. The acquisition would be financed through a combination of equity from institutional investors and a new £30m debt facility, which has been approved by a credit committee.The decision to sell the business comes after Sportech's management invested time and money modernising the football pools business by closing down the "challenging and cost-intensive" paper coupon collector network, which had been in decline for many years. Customers who used this method have now been transferred to a subscription or use the website or the recently launched app.While the deal is not a certainty just yet, the Sportech board has called the offer an "attractive opportunity to realise the value of the football pools business" following its modernisation.The proposed Aim-listed company will also see Conleth Byrne and Carl Lynn, managing director and finance director, respectively, of the pools business move across as chief executive and chief financial officer. The board will also include 888 (888) non-executive chairman Brian Mattingley and former Sportech chief operating officer Ian Hogg.Littlewoods was the first company to provide pools, selling them outside Manchester United's Old Trafford ground in 1923. Rival versions - Vernons and Zetters - were brought together with Littlewoods in 2007 by Sportech under the brand, The New Football Pools.Should the sale go through the proceeds will be added to its existing £36m of net cash, a position arrived at by the fact that Sportech appears to have won its long-running battle with HM Revenue & Customs over a £97m VAT claim linked to its Spot The Ball competition. But the government is still trying to see if it can launch an appeal in spite of almost a decade of legal wrangling, and the outcome of this won't be known until later this year.IC VIEW:At 80p, Sportech's shares trade on 14 times forward earnings, but should this deal go through the cash-adjusted figure could make the valuation more attractive. Hold.Last IC view: Hold, 70p, 25 Aug 2016|
|Nice to hit the 80. Should be on the way to a Quid which is close to my target|
|Sportech nears £100m deal to spin-off The Football PoolsThe TelegraphBen Martin 13 SEPTEMBER 2016 12:35PMBetting company Sportech moved a step closer to selling The Football Pools after entering exclusive talks with a group of gambling industry veterans over a deal to spin off the 93-year-old business for almost £100m.Burlywood Capital, a fund set up by Sportingbet founder Mark Blandford and former investment banker Andrew Burnett, is backing a £97.25m management buy-out that will see the iconic betting business floated on the Aim market.Sportech, which is led by boss Ian Penrose, has been in talks with suitors eyeing the pools since late last year, but the company has decided on a deal that ensures the game will stay in the hands of a team with detailed knowledge of the business.The new company will be chaired by Ian Hogg, a former Sportech executive who left the company two years ago, and led by Conleth Byrne, who is currently managing director of The Football Pools and will become its chief executive.The deal, which is dependent on the buyers raising their funds on Aim, marks a turning point in the long history of the pools, the world's oldest football-based game that allows players to bet on the outcome of matches.The pools began in 1923, when Littlewoods started selling betting coupons outside Old Trafford, the Manchester United football ground. It was then followed by rivals Vernons in 1925 and Zetters eight years after that.There are now about 200,000 players of Sportech's pools and the company announced at its half-year results that the division had "stabilised", generating revenues of £14m during the first six months of the year and adjusted profits of £7m.As well as Mr Hogg and Mr Byrne, Carl Lynn, who is presently the The Football Pools' finance chief, will also take the same role at the new Aim-listed business. Betting industry veteran Brian Mattingley, the chairman of online gambling firm 888, will join as a non-executive.|
|Somerset Lad, that sounds reasonable. Investec has 112p which it reiterated on 26 August.The brokers will also be crunching the numbers after this news and we may see some revisions soon.The price for Football Pools seems fair. It's an online business now that the collector channel has completely gone. Football is a big business so there is plenty of opportunity to develop new online games. Perhaps with the like of Playtech, who were 10% holders in SPO a few years ago but they had to separate to allow SPO to get US licences.|
|9 years ago we were at 160p, what om earth went wrong?|
|The For Sale sign has been over The Football Pools for a few years, so the exclusivity seems fair. The buyers have a lot to do. My concern is that SPO is selling the cash cow.|