Hargreaves Services Share Discussion Threads

[wigwammer] 14/12/2015 10:14

Perhaps you would like to point to the post where you state you have sold your position? I can see the posts where you buy and ramp, but none where you sell. Re net debt. Little surprise, hence the muted market reaction. They state they will be running down stock in H2 to support cash generation in line with expectation. At prelims they stated they were building stock to do this. See below.I would add that given the current nwc position is around the size of the market cap, running up some stock is unlikely to drive a liquidity problem. Perhaps you could read the reports, and try and come up with something interesting, rather than just commentate on the headlines."Our current low net debt position will allow us to fund some coal stock build over the next six months within our mining activities while we wait for coal stocks at power stations to be cleared and for deliveries to resume. We are expecting to build our coal stocks by approximately GBP16 - 18m between now and the end of the calendar year". (August prelims)

[beeks of arabia] 14/12/2015 08:50

Stop living in the past wigwammer. That position was closed a year ago.

Any comments on net debt?

[meijiman] 14/12/2015 08:28

Anything else that can go wrong here?. It would seem not aside from a meteorite from outer space landing on the company HQ.

[wigwammer] 14/12/2015 08:19

Better to have bought at 298p than 550p.Bozo.Beeks of Arabia - 10 Oct 2014 - 15:24 - 1218 of 1544 - 0Looks like we have hit a bottom here - £5.50 seemed to be the spot.Bought back in.

[beeks of arabia] 14/12/2015 08:08

Wigammer

Hargreaves now trades at net working capital with no debt



Net Debt

Debt at 30 November 2015 was GBP31.8m.



What a bozo.

[beeks of arabia] 14/12/2015 07:18

Another dire statement.

Debt at 30m.

No improvement in any of their markets

Simply terrible.

[meijiman] 18/11/2015 16:14

Coal to disappear from the power world says airhead minister. I think its all wrong.

[castleford tiger] 04/11/2015 09:27

worth looking at 250p for a long term hold.
200p would be my ideal buy in price.

tiger

[wigwammer] 04/11/2015 09:02

Cheers pal,Not an assassination - just pointing to facts. I can find the post where you state you purchased hsp at well above £5, but I can't find the commensurate sell post. Perhaps you can point to it?I'm sure the majority of long suffering holders here don't need a commentary on what's gone wrong, particularly from a self professed expert who has evidently called it badly himself.I know the cpx holders at 1p didn't need it. Instead of commentating, why don't you suggest a price at which you would buy? If not at tangible nwc then when? A bit harder than commentating, I guess.

[beeks of arabia] 04/11/2015 07:17

Thanks wigwammer.

Lets update some of those "facts" shall we?

1) My purchases at this time last year were profitable (try looking at the chart, it will give you all the info you need)

2) I never "arrived on the board" of CPX at the bottom - I was buying and selling them at 19-24p (each time at a loss I will add) 4 years previous. My comments regarding the company still stand - they have still to sell anything past evaluation, although the rally from the busted flush at 1p certainly did surprise. But CPX is nothing to do with HSP and i'm yet to find somebody on these boards who has 100% track record in investing.

The HSP land bank is not a hidden asset - it is quite obviously there in plain site. I suspect you read a blog site (which doesn't even work correctly) from two guys talking their own shop and got a semi on thinking you had discovered the holy grail.

Why don't you stop trying to assassinate me and concentrate on your investment.

Your pal,

Beeks

[simon templar qc] 03/11/2015 09:30

Land is a good asset due to the need to increase house building. So long as its fit for building on.

[beeks of arabia] 02/11/2015 23:12

I will just ask one question Wiggy - What timescale do you put on HSP to realise cash from these "hidden assets"?

[wigwammer] 02/11/2015 22:26

Jonwig - the reported tangible non current assets are around £70m, and only a small part of that appears to be property related. So it is likely that, including a revised valuation for the land bank, non current assets are significantly above the hidden £4 suggested.Beeks - You were buying HSP around this time last year, when the shares were well above £5. So the "experienced narrative" you describe hasn't exactly translated into sound investment advice. The latest patter reads as little more than tail wag dog post a massive fall. The reason I'm here is because the shares have seen capitulation on capitulation, and currently trade around audited net current assets. In addition, a sensible piece of research suggests the asset base is understated (apols, but their research is somewhat better substantiated). So not exactly investing because of what an Internet blog says.Keep up the great commentary.. Perhaps they'll give you a job on motd.

[beeks of arabia] 02/11/2015 21:14

Hi Simon!

I've not looked deep in to the finances as, like I said, I am not invested here. I am not an insider by any means, however have a close relationship with many people that work on the industrials side.

The industrial services side (the old Norec) are a superb company, and I mean that from the heart. I have lots of people I would consider close friends who work there, from the lowest paid positions to the top. The company looks after its staff extremely well and came from a very close knit family core.

[simon templar qc] 02/11/2015 20:06

Hi Beeks!

not done in depth research but what are the company forecasting in profits?

Assets are OK in a co that is still making profits and can maintain to do so. Otherwise assets can be eroded.

Been on my monitor for some time simply as a general share on watch list.

[beeks of arabia] 02/11/2015 19:54

wigwammer - I will look past your thinly veiled sarcasm. Well done if you called the bottom on CPX - my playground was OCZ for which CPX held similar dreams. However this isn't the CPX thread, so will move on for now.


Hargreaves now trades at net working capital with no debt - Fair enough.

and has significant property assets potentially worth over £4 alone. Perhaps those things are relevant to an assessment of the investment, but require some ability and thought.

Well that is interesting. However if you look at location, contamination (cleanup costs) Lack of planning permission, etc, etc, I am pretty sure you would not get a figure near to £4. UK Coal could be used as a comparison here with Harworth Estates - Look at the slow speed in which they have been able to unlock value from their land. Oh, and how well have equity holder gained along the way?

Which brings us to core business -

Industrial services - shedding opportunites in their core areas (Steel, Power) with little or no prospect for recovery.

Mining - look at the forward curve for power and coal prices to see where profitability may appear. Barring some kind of systemic shock, there is no hope for the next 5 years.

Transport - Linked to the above sectors and likely to struggle.


I am not an investor here, however when somebody very close to the industry with many many years of experience gives a narrative, it would be stupid to dismiss it.

Just because the company has long term assets does not necessarily translate in to profits for current investors. If your plan is to invest on the hype of a blog, then it's your funeral. All I will say is that that report was issued in August when the share price was £3.60. 'nuf said.


Ciao


Your servant,


Beeks

[jonwig] 02/11/2015 11:02

Yes, having just read the analysis, I see they are using the continental system: a decimal point is a comma and vice-versa.

Thus: "hidden value of around 4,17 GBP per Hargreaves Services Plc share." For which read £4.17 or 417p.

So that's the non-current assets. As you say, working capital adds another 275p.

Will come back if I have any queries.

[meijiman] 02/11/2015 10:59

Article says 417p. Never come across a share where there is so little good news; it seems everything has gone wrong as the world of coal has collapsed. Hope there is some hidden value here.

[wigwammer] 02/11/2015 10:54

Thanks jw, btw 4p meant 400p. Apols

[jonwig] 02/11/2015 10:28

wigwammer at 31 May -

• Investment property £5.1m = 16p. PP&E £57.1m = 178p.
• NWC £88m = 275p.
• Net cash £1m = 3p.

So, I think, better than you said on the tangibles side.

On earnings, forecast reduction to 12p/sh for 2016, divi down to 12p.

All that's without even thinking about what the company does! (Actually I don't really know what they do, but it looks worth finding out!)

EDIT _ just seen your links, thanks.