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ECDC Eur.Conv.Dev

0.07
0.00 (0.00%)
Last Updated: 00:00:00
Delayed by 15 minutes
Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Eur.Conv.Dev LSE:ECDC London Ordinary Share GB00B1BJRB27 ORD EUR0.80
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  0.00 0.00% 0.07 - 0.00 00:00:00
Industry Sector Turnover Profit EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap
0 0 N/A 0

Eur.Conv.Dev Share Discussion Threads

Showing 126 to 149 of 225 messages
Chat Pages: 9  8  7  6  5  4  3  2  1
DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
07/2/2014
20:37
Hmmmm

personally I do not think that that loan, if it existed, still exists now

otherwise ECDC would just knock on Cascades door and day
' hey, here's 1.7ME for you to pay off the NEF 3 loan
and we are happy to accept 10% interest
or you can give us X % of Cascade, to make a big improvement to your cashflow and profit and hence to the value of Cascade'

ECDC would not sit back and allow a very high interest rate loan damage Cascade....while ECDC sits on around 3M euros doing nothing.
...and ECDC bt. back 100k shares in 2012...and wanted to buyback shares in 2013....
whereas if there was an expensive loan to Cascade that was a big risk as you claim....then ECDC would have stepped in to take over that loan rather than want to buy back shares....(or be guilty of intentional gross misconduct....and while I'm not a fan of the inv. mgr....I cant see them doing gross misconduct)


(I think we both agree that the accounts are....poor !.....difficult to use to try to build up a picture of the assets and their value and risks)

smithie6
07/2/2014
20:29
Smithie- No offence but you keep mixing up all kind of different loans.

The NEF 3 loan I'm talking about concerns the march 2011 loan of 2 million (0.3 ECDC + 1.7 million partner).

The loan your referring to this time is the april 2012 loan which was necessecary because of the contractor problems.
RNS:

"European Convergence Development Company PLC ("ECDC" or the "Company") which is managed by Charlemagne Capital (IOM) Limited (the "Manager") announces that it has invested a further €510,000 in its Romanian joint venture associate company, Cascade Park Plaza S.R.L. ("CPP"). The investment is in the form of a new shareholder loan.

The investment forms part of a total of €1.2 million investment in CPP, made in conjunction with the joint venture partner.

The investment was an integral part of the restructuring of the finances of CPP. The two lending banks have provided additional financing which will be used along with the investment monies to settle the liability to the sub-contractor as per the terms of the settlement agreement signed in October 2011."



Cascade is indeed generating cash as the latest trading update confirms:

"Currently the building is fully leased generating positive cash flow after meeting all its financial obligations from an operational and banking point
of view."

And indeed Cascade is meeting all their obligations but that's only because the NEF 3 loan does not have to be paid back and the 27.5% interest is added to the loan.

Really Smithie, you're mixing up all the loans. I'm not and believe me: NEF 3 loan is a serious threat that should be dealt with.

greedfear
07/2/2014
20:07
Hmmm

I dont think the extra loans provided to Cascade are relevant as you think

There was a arbitration hearing in Switzerland.....I think a case with a contractor...and the contractor won....ECDC paid 500k to Cascade to fund their part of the subject....and I assume that the other shareholders in Cascade paid their respective parts......I assume since Cascade did not have enough cash...

ECDC has been receiving cash...including part re-payments of loans....
and Cascade is generating cash each year .is within all banking conditions..and is reducing its loans inferring that it is very happy that it does not need to hold that cash for a possible rainy day in future...(ref. the last annual accounts and interims....)

ECDC is generating cash from operations....
just needs to minimise admin. costs...and see some revaluation happen
(note that some revaluation of Cascade is happening because it is paying down a little of its loans....)


so, in conclusion, I disagree with what you wrote about the loans to Cascade
and note that Cascade is paying down its debts...so if there is a loan to NEF or whatever then perhaps it has already been paid off (ECDC has cash, so if any loan at 27% , ECDC would imo have taken over the loan to get 27% interest on its cash !)

I agree about shaking things up, can you contact the shareholder that recently bt. 7-8M shares ?
sure they would be keen to see any improvements you can suggest happen and see the share price go up ...now they own quite a chunk of ECDC...

---

At Cascade the co. has been trying to maximise value.....which has worked...another 335m2 rented out I recall....perhaps 60kE/year....
and I think I recall that an extension or something was done.
Sadly there is little info given to shareholders.
The building is now abouit 98% rented I think the accounts say....
so the co. could consider to sell it
but have to look at the pros and cons...
ECDC gets a cut (40%) of the difference between sale price and loans
if the bld value goes up 10% then the difference goes up much more than 10%....
so, might be best to wait one year....or keep waiting if keeps going up 10% per year...

have to calculate nett gains versus cost of running the co. and inv. mgr. charging 2% of asset values every year

and as you say, make sure that the co. operates for the shareholders and not Charlemagne.

smithie6
07/2/2014
18:44
Smithie-

The NEF 3 (IOM 2) loan to Cascade is not as such mentioned in the ECDC accounts.
It's true ECDC has 55% of the voting rights, but only have a 15% economical interest.

In a press release of march 2011 ECDC made it clear that they provided Cascade with a 300,000 loan and that a partner (not specifically mentioned) provided 1,700,000 on the same conditions (what conditions were never disclosed).

Later it became clear that ECDC had not provided that loan directly to Cascade, nor did the partner, but that they had used a special company for that NEF 3 (IOM 2).
Furher investigating of who that partner might be led me to Shedlin Capital AG.
Their documents -in German- concerning the NEF 3 (IOM 2) disclosed specifics about the loan to Cascade (first year 22% interest and 27.5% yearly afterwards).

NOTHING about this loan agreement with Cascade will be found in the ECDC accounts, only following the trail of info that is available will lead to what I concluded.

The danger lies exactly in that part. Because it can not be found in the accounts it can easily be overlooked (as I have done initially [I did not pay much attention to the asset NEF 3 (IOM 2)])

Priority 1: get the NEF 3 (IOM 2) loan refinanced as soon as possible!

Regarding the loan to Sliven partner. They're not sitting on the Sliven money, but the money is parked on bank accounts, doing nothing (at a cost of 30,000 euro, heaven knows why).
Yes, we should "force" a break up of Sliven! Thus far it has only been: thinking about it, seriously thinking about it. Meanwhile millions are in bank accounts doing nothing....

That's why I say: who is finally going to take up responsibility and get things moving (actively marketing Cascade, sell it, put an end to Plovdiv, break up the Sliven JV, bite Argo in the butt and make them pay what's owed to us, cut costs in subsidiaries and/or joint ventures, refinance the NEF 3 (IOM 2) loan, cut costs in ECDC etc.etc.!

I see it all but can't do anything about it on my own, support is very much needed!
Larger shareholders that have b#lls are needed to back it all up of initiate it. Otherwise it will be lamb to the slaughter....if the people in charge of ECDC should have bad plans with us.

I would like to emphasize that in no way I have any indication that the people in charge of ECDC do not take our interests at heart, but I would like to make sure their interest are a 100% aligned with those of the share holders.

greedfear
07/2/2014
17:44
ah ha
". An agreement has been reached with the Partner at Sliven to
distribute profits generated from interest receipts as a means of part repaying his outstanding loan. In May 2013 the Company
received a part repayment."

page 6 of annual report
hxxp://www.europeanconvergencedevelopment.com/docs/ecdc_annual_report_311212.pdf

so, it appears that the Sliven partner is sitting on most of the loan made to them...(Sliven partner has Charlemagne as one shareholder !)

seeing as how the project is not going forward....

can shareholders pressure the bod to get all of the cash returned from Charlemagne 1 (part owner of Sliven project ) to Charlemagne 2 (the co. inv. manager) !!

and then we can see the cash in our company accounts....and see the share price go up

and also less risk of Charlemagne 1 spending it bit by bit on nice lunches !


and if the project ever gets the go-ahead in the future...then the money can be lent out again, if ECDC wants to

smithie6
07/2/2014
16:59
Greedfear
which page of the accounts mentions this NEF loan that you mentioned (not sure I agree ) ?

btw
ECDC own 55% of each of the 3 NEFs...ie. ECDC controls each one

smithie6
07/2/2014
13:19
Correct that 20% loan from ECDC to Cascade will be repaid to ECDC.

I'll simplify the current situation:

1. Cascade has an asset of 50 million.
2. Cascade has a bank loan on that property of something like 21 million currently.
3. Cascade loaned from ECDC+partner in Cascade (that one is doing 20% interest)
4. Cascade loaned from NEF 3 an amount that is currently (intrest included)something like 4 million. This loan is preferential and has an interest rate of 27.5% yearly.

To keep things simple let's suppose the asset value remains 50 million and that the bank loan remains at 21 million.
It's almost impossible to make up what exactly will be repaid to ECDC and their partner in Cascade, but given the current debt from Cascade to NEF 3 (being 4 million) it will be 25 million (50-21-4).

Let's take a look at 6 years later. Cascade's debt to NEF3 will be 17 million (!) by then. If everything else remains the same there will only be left 12 million (50-21-17) for ECDC+partner.

8 years later nothing will be left for ECDC+partner because the loan from NEF3 will have accrued to almost 28 million!!
Because the NEF loan is first in rank (after the bank loan) it doesn't matter what interest rate ECDC will be entitled to because there's nothing left to repay.

In other words: the Cascade-NEF 3 loan is going to be killing for us because it accrues with 27.5% AND is first in rank!!!
It's not a problem now, but it's going to be a huge problem as times go by.

That's why something should be done about it. Not next year or the year thereafter but NOW!

greedfear
07/2/2014
12:14
The loan to partner in Cascade doesnt pay interest...
but it builds up unpaid at 20% per year...

and then when the building is sold then the build up interest has to be paid....

TO ECDC

not from ECDC


(in most of the projects ECDC is/was the money provider....via loans...to the developers...and if the borrower does not pay ECDC back then of course the borrower has some penalty ...which in some cases would be on the shares in the borrower and/or the shares in the project held by the borrower)

smithie6
07/2/2014
11:49
Yes smithie investing money in high yielding property in countries with better outlooks seems like the sensible thing to do.
Cascade must be on someones shopping list (soon).

The RNS makes it clear that once Cascade is sold the shareholders will be consulted about how to return funds to them.
Currently the pay out would be something like 16 cents per share (a very healthy return on an investment of 6 eurocents).

greedfear
07/2/2014
11:15
"Sacisa Limited via HALB Nominees Limited purchased 7,441,320 of the Ordinary Shares in the Company at the price of €0.0535 per share"

around 350k or so

I wonder if they will now organise for someone to buy Cascade
and then do a cash payment to shareholders....so they at least get back their 350k and some more, while still owning shares in the remainder ?!

maybe Sacisa already have a possible buyer ....or know who possible buyers are

Euro interest rates are dirt cheap.....making the income from Cascade more valuable and hence gives Cascade a better value than if interest rates were higher...noting that any buyer would perhaps of probably be based in Euro land and use Euro assets or loans to fund the purchase...

looks to me like Romania and Bulgaria are much better positioned than the eurozone for next few years.....
-lower debt wrt GDP,
-lower unemployment and
-higher growth

and not Eurozone countries so they can adjust their exchange rate to adjust their economy....whereas countries like say Spain can not....since effectively the Eurozone financial stuff is set by Germany.

smithie6
06/2/2014
19:38
Gents, together we can make ECDC to take us seriously. We can make a difference: " ecdcecdc@hotmail.com ".

Cheers!

greedfear
06/2/2014
16:59
No. It's not I have not got a problem with this loan whatsoever as this one is highly benificial for ECDC.

The one I'm having problems with is a currently bearing 27% loan provided by NEF to Cascade that is preferential to ALL (ECDC's included) loans.
That's the one that will be eating up millions of net asset value year in year out if we wait too long 'instructing' ECDC bod to take care of it and make sure Cascade will refinance it with a bank loan asap.

Larger shareholders should take up their responsibilty here to make sure that our net asset value will not be sucked out by the Shedlin loan.

As I've tried to make clear there are strong connections between Shedlin, Argo and Charlemagne. Those friendly (?) relationships might contribute to ECDC bod not acting in a businesslike manner. Not saying they are but I would really hate to see that Shedlin would end up being the one benefiting from the value of Cascade (and ECDC shareholders left empty handed).

It's time for shareholders to open their eyes for the possibility for this scenario to realise if they do not take the necessary steps NOW!

If larger shareholders think it's not up to them, well then .....

greedfear
06/2/2014
15:26
Trading update out.
Positives: Cascade still doing great, no more funding Plovdiv's and Mega Mall Rousse's operational losses.
Negatives: not doing enough on getting ARGO to pay what they owe to ECDC, they've been in default since october and were given extra time till end december and now we're still in advanced negotiations and not amused about not mentioning initiatives (if) of Cascade trying to get the NEF loan refinanced.
That loan is a real threat to ECDC shareholders value as it increases with 27% interest on a yearly basis. It's in no way a threat now, but as it's currently something like 4 million you can see where it's going if it's compounding at a 27% rate.
The party benefiting the most from this loan arrangement is Shedlin.

Shareholders really should put pressure on ECDC to get Cascade to sort this out.

Am really starting to dsilike the connections between ECDC (Charlemagne)-Shedlin and Argo.

Larger shareholders should really start pushing pressure on ECDC to sort the Argo and the Cascade -NEF3 loan out before the last mentioned loan is getting to 'eat up' net asset value of ECDC. Time is not our friend here....
Siesta ha terminado.

greedfear
05/2/2014
16:19
Good news on AREO. NEPI not bothering with buying the bank debt.
horndean eagle
03/2/2014
09:14
greedfear,

Do I get in touch with you via the hotmail address? or are you happy to discuss tactics on this BB?

Ben

27ben
30/1/2014
18:32
Glad you ask.

What we need first and foremost are activist shareholders in order to get more transparency so the investors community get a better understanding of the (value of the) investments of the company and -even more important- guidance regarding exit plans concerning those investments.

If one takes a close look at investment (partners) of ECDC the same group of names keep coming up (Charlemagne, Shedlin and Argo to name a few). If one takes a better look at people playing key roles there it shows they've been job hopping between those companies. Nothing wrong with that, but it may be causing ECDC to stay unnecessary long in partnerships (just for oldtimes sake?).

Also if parties have obligations to each other (like Argo owes money to ECDC, and Cascade owes money to Shedlin, and Charlemagne is a joint venture partner in Sliven (a cash rich project that is getting nowhere) these friendly relationships are not per se beneficial for ECDC.

As I'm convinced there's value in ECDC I would like to make sure that value remains at the least (and get acknowledged by the investors community).
I believe a more pro-active shareholder behaviour is needed and I think it can be done.

Just recently the majority of shareholders voted no to all AGM resolutions. As those resolutions were quite common, nothing special, it must have been some kind of disgruntled group of shareholders in my opinion. So there must allready be a group out there willing to become more active. Or the recent 10% shareholder wants to play that role (?).

So in short: activists shareholders, more transparency and better guidance of exits etc.

(If you don't like them I've got others [that I won't be sharing on a BB]) :)

greedfear
30/1/2014
16:09
greedfear

what ideas do you have for narrowing the gap between share price and nav?

horndean eagle
29/1/2014
20:02
Cheers Ben! This initiative might be just the start of an upwardation of the share.

Chinahere! Long time. Still no ECDC shareholder?
Like you say, slowly, very slowly, share price turns for the better. Not much needed for it to really take off imo.
Just a little bit more investor interest and an imminent trading update confirming the 30 eurocents net asset value.

You've just got to love the stock market only place where you can buy a pound for tenpence.

greedfear
29/1/2014
18:35
We are all still here watching you get slowly rich from ECDC Greedfear.
chinahere
29/1/2014
15:17
Greed

I have sent you an e-mail

Ben

27ben
29/1/2014
08:18
Thank you so much for responding, appreciate it!
greedfear
26/1/2014
09:58
I'm starting to feel like a lone ranger here although there must some people reading this BB.
Now Charlemagne does not longer have control over ECDC through their share holding it might be the perfect time to change thoughts about ECDC between us small share holders.
Because of the change of ownership there is no longer a line between C. as shareholder and C. as director of ECDC. In other words factually only non C. related shareholders are in control.

Surely some of you must be interested in or having ideas about how to close the gap between net asset value and share price.
If you are please e-mail me at ecdcecdc@hotmail.com

greedfear
24/1/2014
13:57
So know we know who bought. Congrats and well done Mr. P.!

Within two weeks a trading update.

I do not expect any real surprises there, but am kind of hoping that ECDC will state not to put one other penny in Plovdiv, are proactively in quitting the Sliven project deviding the cash between partners, did receive cash from Argo, real estate market seems to have bottomed out and (one of the priorities imo) Cascade in talks with or having refinanced the NEF 3 loan of 2 million.

Now if only ECDC could be run with lower costs ....

Anyway: onwards and upwards!

greedfear
22/1/2014
12:56
Well it's pretty clear that the people that voted against the share buy back programme have shot themselves in the foot.
ECDC could have bought the Charlemagne holding thus adding value for the remaining shareholders.
(The buy back would have added >2 euro cent value to each share.)

Now the C. holding just changed hands (at a too low price if you ask me)not adding any value to the holding of what would have been remaining share holders.
Think before you vote.....

greedfear
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