Detica Share Discussion Threads

[hew] 01/2/2008 11:39

markth,

Good to see some intelligent comment!

Obviously you are tightly constrained but leaving aside comments about DCA itself, would it be in order to clarify whether your point is focussed only at my second para noting the preponderance of positive brokers?

My third and fourth para are my own comments, based on public knowledge and a Tom Black quote - nothing to do with brokers.

Thank you.

[markth] 31/1/2008 20:45

Can't post anything about DCA - however, I can certainly opine that most "analysts" and brokers probably couldn't tell you which day the bins go out.

[hew] 30/1/2008 09:06

About time! Digital Look shows a pretty strong situation.

Of 9 Brokers, 6 are saying Strong Buy, 1 Buy and 2 Neutral. No sellers.
Forecast Growth to year end in March is 49%.
Forward p/e is only 15.6 and thus a PEG of 0.3.

Although its previous "star status" did lead to perhaps to an overly optimistic sp, in my view the fall on the worry about reduced financial business was overdone. Tom Black repeatedly stated that it represented only 15% of revenue and that only half of that was discretionary, but to no avail.

Of course who knows where the US and other economies are heading, although the majority of DCA's business is Govt. one way or another, and given the current stimulus situation that is unlikely to be cut. Anyway I'm bullish on DCA.

[bluepill] 29/1/2008 22:28

nice recover building here

[hew] 18/1/2008 10:54

My note from The Times today.

18/1 Times: Tiddler to watch; Investec and ABN Amro say Buy; HSBC deal income small but allays worries over small demand for NetReveal.

[cerrito] 16/1/2008 13:20

16-Jan-08 Detica Group DCA Panmure Gordon Hold 192.75p 233.00p (old target) 226.00p (new target) Reiteration

[cerrito] 28/12/2007 22:53

From today's FT
quote
KKR's £600m takeover last week of Northgate Information Solutions was proof that the UK technology sector remains fertile territory for dealmakers.

November was a turbulent month as fears began to bite that the credit crunch would force the financial services industry to curb discretionary technology spending, such as on consultants.
A profit warning from Detica, one of the sector's largest players, contributed to the FTSE Software and Information Technology sector's worst month since the dotcom bubble burst in March 2000.

Mild cautionary statements were treated like heavy profit warnings and the long distrust the City has held for technology resurfaced, culminating in early December with the pulled initial public offering of Sophos, the IT security group, despite solid recurring revenues and a 25-year track record.

The coming year is likely to prove a tough one for many, especially those with exposure to financial services. After five years of sequential growth, Gartner, the consultancy, is predicting global growth of 5.5 per cent, down from about 8 per cent in 2007.

Possible targets

Civica, local government software (£120m market value)

Coda, accounting software (£135m)

Axon, IT services, (£321m)

Innovation Group, insurance outsourcing, (£215m)

Anite, telecoms equipment testing, travel and public sector software (£181m)

Dicom, document scanning software, (£150m)

Yet beneath the headline fears, investors, bankers and analysts remain optimistic that corporate earnings and activity will not dry up.

The Northgate deal capped a flurry of bid activity in December as predators emerged to sniff out undervalued assets.

They appeared willing to pay chunky premiums.

Northgate was taken out at 40 per cent more than its prevailing share price, while NSB Retail Systems agreed a £160m deal with US-based Epicor at a 60 per cent premium.

Other recent deals include Pace Micro Technology's purchase of the set-top box and connectivity business of Dutch group Philips for £68m.

Xploite, the IT managed services group, is in talks with several bidders.

Investors have grown more comfortable with technology stocks as many companies in the sector have matured and proved far more efficient at converting their cash into operating profit.

Furthermore, IT operations are embedded into corporate life as never before.

"In a tougher market, there will be more focus on outsourcing tech activity," said Mike Tobin, chief executive of Telecity, the data centre hosting company.

FDM, the IT staffing company, actually forecast results would be materially ahead of previous expectations as a shortage of specialist IT skills meant banks could not rely solely on in-house teams.

"Product cycles are typically stronger than the economic cycle – so we are relaxed about the prospects for well-placed product companies like Autonomy, Aveva, Fidessa, Micro Focus and Innovation," said George O'Connor, an analyst at Panmure Gordon.

Will Wallis, an analyst at Numis Securities, said Northgate's takeover could boost the share prices of companies that have been subject to takeover rumour or talks with private equity, such as Misys, Intec Telecom and Coda.

He pointed out that Northgate was sold on a prospective multiple of 18 times enterprise value/net operating profit after tax.

"It's in line with multiples paid by private equity in the UK software sector prior to the credit crunch," he said.

He also predicted it would boost other local government software companies, such as Civica and Anite.

"This deal opens up the possibility of consolidation in the public sector, led by private equity," he added. "Both Civica and IBS ... are valued at just half the multiple that KKR is paying for Northgate."

Yet Northgate could still be the largest deal for some time.

Graham Bird, fund manager at SVG, which invested in Northgate, said: "I wouldn't be surprised if there was a pick-up in merger and acquisitions activity as many valuations are extreme."

"Many of these companies are run far better. In the sell-off, there was no distinction between good and bad companies and I think private equity will spot this."

But he added: "There's unlikely to be mega-deals while the banks are not open properly."

Deals concluded are likely to be "without the need to syndicate with other banks," he said.

Trade buyers flush with cash are also likely to remain interested. Datatec, one of the largest IT services companies on Aim, has a long standing plan for further acquisitions and Jens Montanana, chief executive, remains bullish.

"It will play into the hands of operators and not the private equity players as we have assets to make synergies," he said.

"We think there is going to be an opportunity for us," he said. "But it will take time to work its way through. Some sellers still have silly ideas for valuations."

Nevertheless if the UK and US economies fall into recession, valuations could yet fall further.

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007

[simon gordon] 02/12/2007 14:37

This article sums up why it is worth closely following DCA.

'Every now and then a fresh investment book comes along that says something new.

The latest is by Jason Zweig, called Your Money and Your Brain. What's new about it? As John Heinzl noted in a recent Market Moves column, it says that, in effect, your brain often makes you physically (or rather emotionally) disabled exactly when you should act. Is there a way to counteract your brain's sabotage?

Yes, but although it's easy, and is practised by the likes of Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, Ben Graham and other long-term value investors, it doesn't come naturally. In fact, in Mr. Buffett's lecture to an MBA class he touches on the topic of emotions and investing - just go to youtube.com and search out Mr. Buffett's lecture. There, he gives the simple secret: Know your investment really well, so you can fight your brain's insidious tendency to work against you.

And work against you it surely will. Mr. Zweig found via an MRI brain scan of a gambler who had just won that the brain region that lights up is the same that reacts when a drug addict gets a drug-high. So selling a peaking winner is just as hard for an investor as it is for an addict to give up his fix.

On the other hand, the physical response to losing money induces a brain reaction similar to seeing a hissing snake, or to smelling a bad odour. So the urge to sell a plunging stock is similar to the urge to escape a hissing, smelling snake - at the very moment when the stock is cheap, your brain tells you to flee it.

To overcome this urge you must provide a counterforce just as strong, and this one can only be based on deep knowledge. Here is an example from Mr. Buffett's purchases, and right after (ahem), from Giraffe Capital Corp.'s recent buys.

Warren Buffett always admired Anheuser-Busch - an excellent beer maker. So every quarter he religiously read its financials and corporate releases, and talked to management. He became familiar with the business, yet he didn't buy - the stock was too expensive.

Why then did he study the company? Because he admired it, and because he speculated that one day he might be handed a cheap price - which he eventually was. One day the company's stock tanked because of some temporary problems. The moment the stock plunged, Mr. Buffett bought heavily. He knew what he was buying more than those who sold to him; so of course he made a bundle.

Now, from the above you may think it is easy to study companies you admire and keep yourself up to date on them without an immediate purchase in mind. But it's not easy. The stock may never sink on a temporary problem, and you'll have studied the company for nothing. Most investors would consider such study a waste of time. But of course, it is better to lose time than money.

Here is an example from Giraffe's recent experience - it involved a U.S. publisher I have long admired - McGraw-Hill.

Its franchise is awesome, with business-media properties difficult to duplicate. I have always followed the company with interest, but recently a book of mine was published by them, and I had the opportunity to see the company from the inside.

It soon dawned on me that not only is the business superb, but the company has much of its R&D (product development) done for it at a relatively low cost by outside suppliers (authors) who are paid royalties only if they produce, so much of the product cost is variable. I liked that.

So I read the latest financials and other info, even though I didn't think it would be of any immediate benefit. I was wrong. In August, when the market swooned, McGraw-Hill tanked also, because a subsidiary, Standard & Poor's, was criticized along with other ratings agencies after issuing reports on subprime assets. The stock fell to about $60 (U.S.), at which point a company director, Kurt Schmoke, bought some. A few days later the stock fell further, to $50. I couldn't resist and bought some for Giraffe's non-tech fund.

Did I buy it with a song in my heart? Hardly. I was as jittery as everyone else - my own brain is just as primitive as the next guy's. But the research and the familiarity I now had with the company helped. Since then the stock has recovered somewhat (like most other stocks), but I think there's still room to go.

What can all this mean to you? Just pick a few companies you admire and study them without any intention of buying any time soon. (Matter of fact, if the companies are truly admirable, chances are their stocks already reflect this and are not cheap.)

If you pick your corporate gems well and study them deeply, and if one day their stocks plunge because of non-critical issues, you could then buy them cheap - without your brain standing emotionally in your way.'

Avner Mandelman is president and chief investment officer of Giraffe Capital Corp. and the author of The Sleuth Investor.

[simon gordon] 02/12/2007 11:11

m.a. Partners

Cost - 32.3m
Employees - 130

03/06
T/O - 24.4m
PBT - 1.5m

As the Investment Banking business has hit a brick wall, it could well be 2 to 3 quarters until business picks up, that probably means 2008 is a wipe out. Employing all those expensive consultants could lead to a rapid descent into a loss for this division. DCA have said they will move employees to Government work but as most of the employees are based in the States and DFI is still trying to gain traction, the potential seems low. Redeploying staff from America to Britain would be very expensive. I presume DCA could parcel out some work from Britain to the States - but will this do? DCA will be loath to fire m.a. staff and their intellectual capital. It is a bit of a conundrum: fire and protect earnings (share price is supported) or keep employees and warn on profits (share price collapses).

[simon gordon] 01/12/2007 20:28

From the FT - 20/11/07:

Detica declines as consultancy arm goes quiet
By Philip Stafford

Shares in Detica lost a quarter of their value after the IT services group shocked investors by warning that its commercial division would be hit by a sharp decline in demand from investment banks.

The share price slumped 77¾p to 234½p, its lowest level since July 2006, after Tom Black, chief executive, said the consultancy business, in which employees advise on operations such as fixed income and foreign exchange, "had quite significantly slowed down since September".

As a result, Mr Black said the group was "not expecting growth here [in commercial] in the second half".

Kevin Ashton, analyst at Landsbanki Securities, said: "They're the first UK software company out of the blocks saying that financial services is impacting their business.

"Their business is at the sharp end of it and they're very much a lead indicator for everyone else."

Figures for the six months to September 30 at the commercial division had risen 52 per cent to £41.6m following the acquisitions of MA Partners and Evolution.

Group revenues for the period rose 45 per cent to £98.8m, largely ahead of analysts' expectations. The interim dividend rose 92 per cent to 1.2p (0.625p). Earnings per share increased to 4.5p (3.9p) and the pre-tax profit rose to £7.7m (£5.9m).

Cash outflow for the period was £3.1m compared with an inflow of £3m a year earlier. Detica blamed the unwinding of unusually strong cash flow in the second half and the number of fixed-price projects.

FT Comment

*The headwinds Detica is facing are causing concern. Visibility in financial services is just two months. Meanwhile, winning the e-borders contract shows the strength of its core UK security business but it will mean further costs, such as headcount, being accrued in the short term before the revenues drop through. As the group struggles with diversification through acquisition, it is in danger of losing its halo as one of the UK's favoured IT plays. The shares trade on a prospective price-earnings ratio of about 17 times, far enough for now.

-----

Worth a read:

[p0lzeath] 01/12/2007 20:03

23.11.07 :+10.75, (249) Investec has upgraded Detica Group PLC to 'buy' from 'hold', saying it thinks the shares have been oversold and it thinks long-term material revenues will be generated. In a note today, the broker said the share price has been impacted by unfortunate turns of events in two key areas - the USA, where integration of US national security business DFI, which it acquired last February, began poorly; and most recently the financial services markets, where capital market issues have cut demand. But Investec said it believes Detica remains likely to generate material information analytics revenues in both areas in the long term. The broker said the somewhat high-risk choice by Detica of acquiring non-analytics-driven businesses will, in its view, be justified by the valuable ends of a real presence in the USA and capital markets. Investec said in its opinion the share price fails to reflect this strategic reality, while also underestimating the value of the UK core. Donwgrading its estimates to reflect the financial services issues, Investec kept its 299 pence price target on the stock and upgraded it to 'buy', after noting Detica trades on below 15x its calendarised 2008 estimated earnings per share.

20-11-2007 20.11.07 :+5, (249.75) Dresdner Kleinwort has upgraded Detica Group PLC to 'buy' from 'add', with a reduced target price of 290 pence from 400 pence. In a note today, the broker said it has also cut its pre-goodwill earnings per share (EPS) estimates by 10% for 2008 and by around 12% in 2009 and 2010, a greater downgrade than expected, it said, due to caution on investment baking prospects and limited visibility. Following yesterday's interim results, the broker said it has taken a conservative view of estimates, as Detica warned of poor trading in the commercial business, where the financial services business has since August been suffering from weak demand from investment banking clients. With only four months' visibility in this business, said the broker, it thinks a conservative view on estimates is now warranted, noting that management has said project completions are not being replaced by new work -- indicating that the market has frozen. Dresdner Kleinwort's reduced sales estimates -- down by 8% this year and by 10% for 2009 and 2010 -- lead to its EPS estimate cuts, it added.

19-11-2007 19.11.07 :-66.25, (245) lower in midmorning deals as it said its commercial businesses are unlikely to grow in the second half due to fall-out from the global credit crisis, prompting Charles Stanley to downgrade the stock to 'add' from 'buy' and trim back its estimates. Earlier today, the UK IT services company said progress in its Public Sector and National Security divisions was overshadowed by its warning that, towards the end of the first-half of 2007, it saw a sharp decline in demand from investment banks in its Commercial Division. The cautious outlook unsettled analysts and overshadowed otherwise strong half-year results. Chief executive Tom Black told Thomson Financial News this morning: "The pure banking bit that is affected is about 10-15% (of the commercial unit's revenues). "I would say flat growth is not an unreasonable estimate although like everyone else we don't know what will happen (in the investment banking sector)." In reaction, Charles Stanley lowered the stock to 'add' from 'buy', saying that the reaction to Detica's interims reflects increasing nervousness in the markets over the outlook for IT spending generally. Marginally downgrading its operating profit forecasts for March 2008 by 1% and by 3% for 2009, the broker said this reflects weakness in financial services. However, the broker said it still forecasts strong earnings growth in 2008, but it thinks the risk to 2009 has increased.

[p0lzeath] 01/12/2007 19:59

Had plenty of good notes since the recent big fall.

[simon gordon] 01/12/2007 19:52

The DFI buy looks like it will start delivering after a shaky start - this is a huge market that DCA are tapping into and it bodes well for the future. NetReveal looks like a real winner and has the potential to be a product that can be sold globally - now in 1st trial in the States. The e-Borders contract shows the order size is getting bigger and bigger.

The first problem that de-railed the share price - DFI - is now sound. The second - MA - is a big unknown and Bankers will probably start a major cull on costs, which may last six to eight months. Anticipating when the share price starts to look forward to 2009, is the key to getting the most bang for the buck.

If the market cracks in the next two to three months, then DCA could go below £2.00 and maybe hit £1.50 in a panic.

Net debt is c.25m and will fall by the Finals - so gearing is not a problem that undermines DCA.

03/08:
PBT - 24.5m
EPS - 14.6

03/09:
PBT - 30.4m
EPS - 17.9

If 2008 is a year of no upgrades and the focus is on hitting forecasts, what is a fair share price until we inch toward 2009 and a more buyoant Banking division?

Rating for 2008, based on 03/09 EPS forecast of 17.9p:
Q1 - 12x = £2.15
Q2 - 13x = £2.32
Q3 - 14x = £2.50
Q4 - 15x = £2.68

I suppose it could trade between that range in 2008.

Sentiment could become so bad that buyers go on strike and PI's and some Fundies sell, and the DCA share price crumbles on low volume - thus giving a chance to pick up some stock cheaply (if you believe that the Banking crisis will not lead to a recession or even a depression).

DCA is a very high quality company - not many on the LSE Small Cap index - that has strong growth drivers and once the Banking crisis is in the rear view mirror, a share price that could be heading to a fiver during Q2 or Q3 in 2009.

If it can picked up for £2.00 a 150% return in under two years.

The downside would be if the Banking crisis leads to a serious recession and Banks drastically cut spending, and Governments hit a a fiscal brick wall, freezing projects. Leaving DCA exposed and profits falling sharply.

There are 8.9m shares being held short = 7.7% of the total number of shares in issue.

Not a good sign if you are a holder.

[simon gordon] 01/12/2007 14:07

There are 8.9m shares being held short = 7.7% of the total number of shares in issue.

Not a good sign if you are a holder.

[simon gordon] 01/12/2007 12:26

The DFI buy looks like it will start delivering after a shaky start - this is a huge market that DCA are tapping into and it bodes well for the future. NetReveal looks like a real winner and has the potential to be a product that can be sold globally - now in 1st trial in the States. The e-Borders contract shows the order size is getting bigger and bigger.

The first problem that de-railed the share price - DFI - is now sound. The second - MA - is a big unknown and Bankers will probably start a major cull on costs, which may last six to eight months. Anticipating when the share price starts to look forward to 2009 is the key to getting the most bang for the buck.

If the market cracks in the next two to three months, then DCA could go below £2.00 and maybe hit £1.50 in a panic.

Net debt is c.25m and will fall by the Finals - so gearing is not a problem that undermines DCA.

03/08:
PBT - 24.5m
EPS - 14.6

03/09:
PBT - 30.4m
EPS - 17.9

If 2008 is a year of no upgrades and the focus is on hitting forecasts, what is a fair share price until we inch toward 2009 and a more buyoant Banking division?

Rating for 2008, based on 03/09 EPS forecast of 17.9p:
Q1 - 12x = £2.15
Q2 - 13x = £2.32
Q3 - 14x = £2.50
Q4 - 15x = £2.68

I suppose it could trade between that range in 2008.

Sentiment could become so bad that buyers go on strike and PI's and some Fundies sell, and the DCA share price crumbles on low volume - thus giving a chance to pick up some stock cheaply (if you believe that the Banking crisis will not lead to a recession or even a depression).

DCA is a very high quality company - not many on the LSE Small Cap index - that has strong growth drivers and once the Banking crisis is in the rear view mirror, a share price that could be heading to a fiver during Q2 or Q3 in 2009.

If it can picked up for £2.00 a 150% return in under two years.

The downside would be if the Banking crisis leads to a serious recession and Banks drastically cut spending and Governments hit a a fiscal brick wall and freeze projects. Leaving DCA exposed and profits falling sharply.

I'll be back with more musings!

[dodge99] 29/11/2007 09:20

£2.15 is recommended buy price. Insiders believe that the Government work will outweigh the financial services risk. Any thoughts?

[sheik yerbouti] 20/11/2007 08:49

I don't hold, just monitoring. The Independent also says 20x and a price of 380p but has a buy recommendation! I think these papers just make it up.




Detica

Our view: Buy

Share price: 380p (-3p)

Detica is a star performer in the UK IT services sector. Many of the company's competitors have struggled to cope with the changing dynamics of the IT market and investors have become frustrated with earnings volatility. However, it has been smooth sailing at Detica, headed up by Tom Black.

No surprise then that the results for the year to March again beat forecasts with revenue up 28 per cent on an organic basis to £156m and pretax profit up 47 per cent to more than £17m. The company made two significant acquisitions during the year, buying MA Partners to give it access to the capital markets sector for £35m last September and DFI International in March, a £22.5m deal that bulked up its US national security business. Nevertheless, its debt of just £8m beat expectations, adding further shine to the results.

The one unknown quantity in Detica's model has been the Streamshield internet filtering product, a loss-making division developed on the side. The company decided to fold the technology into its core business after failing to develop its sales strategy as planned. This will reduce losses, although Streamshield is a missed opportunity.

With further double-digit growth pencilled in for next year and the US operation starting to kick on after the acquisition of DFI, there is little to suggest that Detica is likely to lose its reputation amid the sector's continuing volatility. The stock has had an exceptionally strong run and is trading at about 20 times upgraded forecasts for next year's earnings. But this is an undemanding rating that this company can comfortably justify.

[wjccghcc] 20/11/2007 08:41

20x next year's earnings? Methinks the journalist didn't use the current shareprice. After yesterday's downgrade, they're on 17x this year and 12.5x next year's forecasts. I'm sure the investment banking side will be screwed for 12 months but they should be able to divert resources to the govt side reasonably easily.

[simon gordon] 20/11/2007 08:16

From the Telegraph:

Detica shares plunged 67¼ to 245p following analyst downgrades. Kevin Ashton, analyst at Landsbanki, who cut his rating on the stock from buy to hold, said: "Detica's problem is it is the first [IT company] to say the issue with the banks has already impacted on it. The real worry is it is not realising the gravity of the situation. In the past, downturns have tended to be far deeper than anyone expects."

-----

Detica Group
245p -67¼
Questor says Sell

Ripples from the credit crunch continue to spread, with security software company Detica the latest stock to be pummelled.

This time, it was the fears that banks are reining in their IT spending following this summer's financial turmoil that pushed the company's share price down sharply.

Detica warned that it had already seen a sharp drop in demand from investment banks and said that it looks like full-year revenues from that unit, which represents 10pc-15pc of revenues, will come in lower than last year.

The warning came alongside what was otherwise a healthy set of half-year results.

Increasing paranoia over terrorism and growing budgets for homeland security drove revenues in the government division 40pc higher.

Detica recently won a key contract to help the Home Office boost data intelligence and biometrics at border controls.

It is also confident about the outlook for its US government business. Integration of the recently acquired DFI – which provides data analytics to the government and intelligence agencies – is almost complete. Performance has also improved after a rocky start to the first half when the integration took longer and cost more than Detica had forecast.

Questor sold Detica last November when the shares were trading at 315p. The market has given the company some respite since then, pushing the shares over 400p in March. But yesterday's downgrades spooked investors, prompting a sell-off and driving the shares down to an 18-month low of 245p.

The fear is that this is just the tip of the iceberg. Detica's services are exactly the kind of thing banks will cut back on in a downturn. The company has said it is shifting resources from that division to its booming government unit, but it may not be able to react fast enough.

The shares are trading on around 20 times next year's earnings, which looks costly in view of what lies ahead. This stock remains a sell.

[togglebrush] 20/11/2007 08:07

The volume traded yesterday was not that high at 958,782.

Roughly 1 day in 10 trading days has a higher volume (just under 9%). We have had much higher volumes in the last two months (volume 3m on 21st Sept with share price up 1.3%: volume 2.9m on 10th Oct with share price up 5%).

Yesterdays fall of over 21% (at least 2x nearest example) and the range (high-low/close) of 31% (at least 3x nearest example) was exceptional in last two years.

I know markets are volatile right now but this was EXCEPTIONALLY ROUGH handling. Perhaps today we may get a correction.

[simon gordon] 19/11/2007 15:13

Charles Stanley marginally downgraded its EPS forecasts to 14.7p in 2008 and 18p in 2009 (2007: 10.7p), while acknowledging the "risk to 2009 has increased.

Source: IC

[simon gordon] 19/11/2007 12:39

Hi Hew,

I am surprised at the scale of the fall.

Yes, the US DFS integration was the first problem - I note DCA say this has been fixed.

The Financial sector looks to be in serious trouble with the Credit Crunch/Banking Crisis and I wonder how much profit could be lost?

I will dig into the figures later.

[hew] 19/11/2007 12:05

simon g

Second piece of bad news? Are you referring to the US DFS integration problems? If so, I read today's news as saying they have largely been sorted out.

I confess to surprise at the scale of the fall - perhaps 10% would have been "reasonable" on the caution expressed and implied. I suspect something further to come - possibly director sales. They did so following the previous results. (Or was it a trading statement? Recently anyway.)

Not had time to check the numbers properly but I didn't see anything serious on a quick scan.

W, I will be looking to add also, but not for a day or two, in case of possible dir sales - not that I actually expect them, it's just that such a fall is a surprise.

[wjccghcc] 19/11/2007 10:39

I reckon EPS will be adjusted down to around 13p. With the govt business doing well, particularly in the US in H2, that puts them on a PE of around 18 for the FY, on which basis I've bought some back at 230p.