Cartucho Share Discussion Threads

[knowing] 10/11/2006 15:11

Must be pretty illiquid if thats the trade that pushed this up.

[knowing] 10/11/2006 13:59

Blimey this moves fast. What gives ?

[knowing] 10/11/2006 12:27

Expect another T trade towards the end of the day.

[knowing] 10/11/2006 08:01

Well it is still going

[malkie] 10/11/2006 00:16

not a chance IMO!

[knowing] 09/11/2006 21:47

Watching too as it has got a long way to climb to get back to the dizzy heights it once was.

[knowing] 09/11/2006 16:09

Potentially cleared the overhang.

[malkie] 09/11/2006 16:08

Cant argue with those trades.

There may be more to this than meets the eye. Of course it could always be short position closing.
Will watch with interest.

[rafas_reds] 09/11/2006 15:07

Add another 2mill

[knowing] 09/11/2006 15:02

Looks like someone got 4.6M for 2p

Do they know something ?

[knowing] 09/11/2006 14:21

Who bought then ?

[malkie] 08/11/2006 19:03

The other big issue is that these kiosks are manned by OfficeMax staff. Their employees are pretty much on minimum wage or thereabouts and are demotivated at best.
They were resisting the roll out because refilling is harder & messy work compared to the other jobs they have to do.

Check out Bradsucks employee windge site - posts 344 & 346 give you an idea of what the staff think of ink refills.



if the staff arent on your side, what hope have you got....??

[malkie] 08/11/2006 18:48

pug - what do you think will happen if OfficeMax throw in the towel or run the operation down??

[pugugly] 08/11/2006 14:56

Malkie:> 338: Is the black cartidge for the HP office jet 6215. The TriInk is number 344. imo the managemetn they got rid of were big company boys not used to the problems of a small company - That is no excuse for the founder shareholders not keeping them on a much tighter rein. See this happen too often - Jury very much out at the moment but potentially a very GREEN company and should (provided they can get the system to work) have a fair chance of coming through. Cash flow could however be the killer.

[malkie] 08/11/2006 12:06

well Rafas, you've obviously convinced yourself that you have made a shrewd bet. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I'm just explaining why I wouldn't bet on this company.
The market isnt always right. But as I said, unless I realised something the market doesn't, I wouldn't bet against it. In this case, I'm not claiming to be that smart.
I have been in the industry, I learned a lot that I couldn't have known prior to being involved & I know the pitfalls.
That's why I feel your reasoning is too simplistic - you dont know how much you dont know.
The company are telling us that the roll-out was halted. Yet the senior management were all sent packing. This tells me that the rot is a lot deeper than mere "teething problems". I think there is some reading between the lines to be done.

I'm not saying that OEMs will quash the kiosks, I'm saying that they could - in a heartbeat. As could the Re-manufacturers, as could the online retailers.
They are very competitive and have far more stable business models and know the game.
You seem to think its a matter of who offers the public the best/best value solution, but when your dealing with a retail chain, your fight is for exposure to the customer & OfficeMax will play them all off against each other.
HP will be happy to upfront several million $$ in "soft" money for their prominent position advantage. And that the clean part of the game.
But ultimately OfficeMax are box shifters and that is their psychology. If this re-filling malarkey is not as quick and clean a business as they had been promised, then it becomes more trouble than its worth and they lose interest. I think this has already happened, and the halt in the roll out is just the first stage in them pulling the plug. And the top management being kicked out seems conducive to this reasoning.

The end game in the industry will start with the fully automated refill/vending customer facing solution - and that is not if - its when.
That's where I would put my money.

Neither am I saying that all OEM's are not expensive, I was merely referring to the 338 in relative terms.


Good luck to you, you are a braver man than me!Dont forget to keep those print heads clean - they cost more to replace than the ink!

[rafas_reds] 08/11/2006 09:58

Simplistic maybe!! However why over complicate things the market that ctgp are in fundamentally has not changed ie competitors with more advanced equipment or OEM suppliers altering this market hasn't happened. Since ctgp floated the same risks still apply the ones that you mention that were highlighted in the prospectus ipo.

What has changed as you rightly point out is the markets confidence in ctgp to deliver. This is primarily based upon service issues i.e engineers getting out within a prompt period and first point of call interaction with the callcentre also there would of been teething problems with any new hardware that only time could put right.

Correct who knows what ultimatum officemax have delivered, however that the kiosks are still in place in nearly 400 outlets is surely testament to the working relationship that they have. If it was a total ballsup I'm sure officemax could of pulled the plug stating incompetence on ctgp part and that would of been it.

In terms of betting against the market thats more of a generalisation stating that the markets always right.

Eggs all in one basket no disputing that fact they need to keep officemax for the business to exist in it's present format. However if the company sole wish is to take a pot of money spend it then delist and purchase the equipment and ip rights for a nominal fee then that applies to most companies listed on aim without any institutional support unless you have a bunch of shareholders doing a cfe...

OEM cartridges not expensive you are having a laugh, relative to disposable income maybe but in terms of what it costs for the actual ink thats some mark up and as the consumer becomes more aware of this is looking to seek better value.

I can go out and buy bulk ink for next to nothing and any firm manufacturing/buying wholesale is in a position to offer seriously good value to the end user. That in itself allows the enduser to perhaps print more that in turn can drive the market.

You seem to be taking the view that the hp/cannon/epson will squash the idea of kiosks and similar hardware. This is where i will have to agree to disagree with you looking at the market i feel that refill kiosks will be around for sometime although oem sales for the immediate future will have a sizable chunk of the market. It's just weather ctgp can put themselves in the best possible position to profit from this time will tell.

The last rns stated an update in the near future this should pretty much give a boost to the share price if positive or if negative the price heads south.

R.R

[malkie] 07/11/2006 23:33

I think your analysis is too simplistic. The company has issued a profits warning, culled all senior management.
The price has fallen because the market does not have confidence that the Company can deliver.
I don't know enough to call either way. But I would never bet against the market unless I realised something the market wasn't aware of.

OfficeMax didn't just wake up one morning and decide that its not working. There was probably a succession of let downs and in the end they had to do something.
You don't know what ultimatum OfficeMax has given them. The fact that they screwed up and allowed matters to get to the point where the roll out had to be halted, is enough of a signal for me to stay well clear. I've seen it all before.

I have no idea about the trade value of a kiosk. What I do know is that it is only of value to a party who has a use for it and if it were to form part of a liquidation sale, it will go for next to nothing.

There are too many uncertainties with this company to make it even remotely of interest to me. The business is messy and competition from OEM's & Recyclers could blow them away in a heart beat.

With only one significant major customer with whom they are out of favour.

If I were looking at this, I would want to see how much cash they actually had left and what contingent strategy they have should the OfficeMax contract be terminated.

My guess is if the Office max deal cannot be resurrected, this will end up as a shell and de-list to preserve whatever cash they have left.

Not familiar with the 338 but the OEM's don't seem to be that expensive. No integral print head, so you have to make sure your print heads are kept clean. White spirit & a soft cloth should do the trick.

[rafas_reds] 07/11/2006 22:24

This is how i see things at the moment company floats stating that they are going to have xyz sales predominately from one customer via revenue sharing basis and look to pursue new business. Ctgp have problems with hardware mainly due to service/maintenance issues share price collapses.

So if ctgp put out an update stating after a review of their service procedures officemax are happy to continue their partnership blah blah... The price moves upwards. Taken into account that this is an aim stock at an early stage it is going to be news driven and the market generally looks 12-18 months ahead.

A friend of mine used to be involved with a couple of franchise c/worlds that he used to run and in terms of innovation things haven't changed much and as you rightly point out the consumer will always need to purchase oem equipment. My view is for the percentage of the market that ctgp have to gain for the company to be valued higher than it is at present is minuscule.

Agree that the big boys can call the shots and epson are well renown for this type of thing and hp have made some noises as I'm sure you are aware. However i don't think it's that clear cut what type of outlets sell their consumables/hardware.


Cartridge no 338

One more question for you how much do you think a recon ce22 kiosk is worth trade?

[malkie] 07/11/2006 21:06

Totally Agree it's not going to be easy for them to turn things around although I'm slightly more positive than you but still need to have more questions answered before i can spend any more funds. Of course it would be essential to ascertain where and how far other manufacturers are in their developments.

you will never find out that information which you feel is essential. All of the development going on is under wraps. So where do you go from here?

However as you are aware it's not always the companies who's products have the best spec that achieve mass market penetration.

True. But conversly the ones with the worst spec have even less chance

Looking at the industry from my angle it doesn't seem to be as fast changing as say telecoms or other industries where items have a shorter shelf-life. If you look at the ink cartridge it's pretty much the same as ten years ago the money has been spent on the actual quality of the ink and longevity of print.

what is you angle? One fact for you: Most of HP/Epson/Canon profit comes from sales of consumables than any otherdivision. New printers are subsidised, in the same wy as mobile phones.
Large multinational OEM's represent the biggest threat to the Cartucho type of operation. Its worth checking out the risk profile in the Cartucho IPO prospectus.
Also you should be aware that cartridges cannot be refilled indefinately. Maybe 4-6 times max before they completely deteriorate. Likewise on cartridges without integrated print heads, it is not cost effective to refill. These OEM's are constantly tripping up re-fillers. They play very dirty. Like Changing the ink or sponge composition to react to a non propriatory ink

Also as far as I'm aware there is no standard design/format of a cartridge that endears itself to uniform automated refilling, so in theory for this to occur the big boys would need to work together when designing the cartridges.

Thats a big assumption. A designer would merely look at that as a challenge.

Do you know of any companies trialling such automated machines that can cover various brands.

Not from what I am aware, but I would not hardly be the first to know

Also do you know of any other companies listed in the uk/usa offering similar services.

No - knowing the industry as I do I would not invest in this type of proposition. I would sooner by shares in HP. They are calling the shots and one move from them & Cartucho/Cartidge World type operations are history

The cartridge i had filled was a hp and they didn't need to drill any further holes as there was holes under the sticker on top of the cartridge.

What Cartridge Number its it?

[rafas_reds] 07/11/2006 20:39

Totally Agree it's not going to be easy for them to turn things around although I'm slightly more positive than you but still need to have more questions answered before i can spend any more funds. Of course it would be essential to ascertain where and how far other manufacturers are in their developments.

However as you are aware it's not always the companies who's products have the best spec that achieve mass market penetration.

Looking at the industry from my angle it doesn't seem to be as fast changing as say telecoms or other industries where items have a shorter shelf-life. If you look at the ink cartridge it's pretty much the same as ten years ago the money has been spent on the actual quality of the ink and longevity of print.

Also as far as I'm aware there is no standard design/format of a cartridge that endears itself to uniform automated refilling, so in theory for this to occur the big boys would need to work together when designing the cartridges.

Do you know of any companies trialling such automated machines that can cover various brands.

Also do you know of any other companies listed in the uk/usa offering similar services.

The cartridge i had filled was a hp and they didn't need to drill any further holes as there was holes under the sticker on top of the cartridge.

Thanks R.R

[malkie] 07/11/2006 16:17

R - nope dont hold, but watch the industry very closely.
I used to own a distribution company selling recycled products to the retail trade and know some of the larger european players.

My view is negative. I dont say they dont have a chance, but its not going to be easy for them to turn things round.
If another operator came out with an automated system, then the kiosks could be redundantant.

FWIW pretty much all re-cyclable cartridges need to have a hole drilled.

[rafas_reds] 06/11/2006 07:19

They drill a hole for some cartridges not all though, from what i understand ctgp and officemax have a profit sharing agreement i.e the cost of the hardware is absorbed by ctgp and the revenue generated is split how I'm not sure but the word partnership leads me to believe that it is much more than a franchise return would be, they also sell kiosks outright.

The company guarantees the quality of the product if customers are not satisfied they can have a full no quibbles refund.

I have actually seen how the machine works they have six in sainsburys I got a cartridge fiiled up at loughborough in under five minutes.

I agree there are problems thats why the co is valued at 1.8 mill and has allowed me to invest at this price. However I feel that the biggest problem is not refilling but the maintenance and servicing of the equipment also the training of employees, this is where the company will fail or succeed in my view.

You are assuming that this kiosks cannot be upgraded to implement any new advances in the market as they arise.

I hold at present whats your postion in this? malkie ps. (i do welcome your input)

R.R

[malkie] 05/11/2006 23:49

There is no hole - they have to drill a hole. That is the manual and quite fiddly bit.
Go into any Cartridge World and that part of the process is much the same.
The staff need to be trained specifically to use the equipment.

Selling OEM's or remanufactured cartridges do not involve anything like the same degree of technical training or hassle - and the margins, particularly on Reman's are extremely good.
Office max also have their own label and a lot of business in online.



That's what the Cartucho in-store kiosks are up against.

Perhaps you could clarify how the business model works. Do Office Max actually buy the equipment? or do they just pay for the ink??

As I said, Office Max were badly let down. If they don't get on track, then all the kiosks will be removed. Office max, have nothing to lose.

It is also likely that the next developments in the industry are for a fully automated solution. That's when they in store refilling will come into its own. It's only a matter of time.

If I were invested here, I would consider all contrary views, rather than simply defend my investment decision.

[rafas_reds] 05/11/2006 16:42

The majority of the process is automated ie the actual refilling and the weighing of the ink and draining of the ink and the testing of the printhead. The manual part is finding the hole that needs refilling that can be different on each brand of cartridge its not rocket science in my view.