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CGT Capital Gearing Trust Plc

4,695.00
-10.00 (-0.21%)
28 Mar 2024 - Closed
Delayed by 15 minutes
Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Capital Gearing Trust Plc LSE:CGT London Ordinary Share GB0001738615 ORD 25P
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  -10.00 -0.21% 4,695.00 4,700.00 4,710.00 4,715.00 4,695.00 4,695.00 119,371 16:35:11
Industry Sector Turnover Profit EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap
Unit Inv Tr, Closed-end Mgmt -43.51M -51.39M -2.0010 -23.49 1.21B
Capital Gearing Trust Plc is listed in the Unit Inv Tr, Closed-end Mgmt sector of the London Stock Exchange with ticker CGT. The last closing price for Capital Gearing was 4,705p. Over the last year, Capital Gearing shares have traded in a share price range of 4,325.00p to 4,850.00p.

Capital Gearing currently has 25,682,435 shares in issue. The market capitalisation of Capital Gearing is £1.21 billion. Capital Gearing has a price to earnings ratio (PE ratio) of -23.49.

Capital Gearing Share Discussion Threads

Showing 7926 to 7949 of 8450 messages
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DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
19/4/2015
09:35
theuniversal,

Thanks for the response im still a little tad confused to your answer are you saying for example: that shares bought for £3500 and bed n isa (at profit) for £15000 wont be classed as part of your £11100 cgt allowance because its bed n isa.

No, I'm saying that as far as CGT is concerned, you bought the shares for £3,500 and sold them for £15,000, realising a gain of £11,500 just as it would for any other purchase and sale at those prices. On its own, that gain will use up your £11,100 CGT allowance (assuming it happens in the current tax year) and leave £400 to be taxed by CGT. If you realise other gains and/or losses in the current tax year, so that it's not on its own, it will combine with them in the usual way and then the CGT allowance will be applied and CGT assessed on any remaining gains - all exactly as normal for any other gain.

I.e. whether the sale makes up part of a bed-and-ISA or not makes absolutely no difference to how you are taxed. You need to tell the taxman the same details about the sale, and provide the same computations of gains/losses, as you do for any other sale. You don't need to tell him that the sale was part of a bed-and-ISA deal, and if you do he will ignore that information because it makes absolutely no difference to your CGT position.

Note by the way that I couldn't tell you exactly what your CGT situation would be in my original reply because you hadn't said then what the shares had been bought for. And my first paragraph in this reply only applies if they were bought for £3,500 - if for example they were instead bought for £17,500, the sale involved in the bed-and-ISA would realise a loss of £2,500 instead of a gain of £11,500.

david77,

TU - the taxman doesn't want to know anything about your ISA deals.

That's potentially a bit misleading. I know what you mean: as far as the taxman is concerned, the bed-and-ISA is three separate deals: sale outside the ISA, cash subscription to the ISA, purchase inside the ISA, and your statement says that he only wants you to tell him about the first of those. But for anyone thinking of the bed-and-ISA as a single deal, as theuniversal clearly is, it would incorrectly suggest the taxman doesn't want to know about any of it.

Also, rather pedantically the taxman does want to know some things about the ISA deals - it's just that he wants the broker to tell him about them, not the owner of the ISA. Things like the National Insurance number of the person subscribing to an ISA and the amount of stamp duty paid on purchases within an ISA...

Gengulphus

gengulphus
18/4/2015
15:50
TU - the taxman doesn't want to know anything about your ISA deals.
david77
18/4/2015
15:07
Theuniversal - if you bought the shares for £3500 in your normal dealing account and they are now worth £15000 you will show a profit of £11500 when you sell them prior to buying them again in your isa (bed and isa). That £11500 will be part of your cgt allowance - in fact it is over your allowance, assuming you haven't any losses to add to your calculations.
largeronald
18/4/2015
13:49
Largeronald I get that. . But you seem to miss what im saying before. Thanks for the reply all the same
theuniversal
18/4/2015
12:19
Theuniversal - anything you sell outside of an isa is liable to CGT once you have used any allowances. The fact that you subsequently wish to buy the same number of shares within an isa is neither here nor there.
largeronald
18/4/2015
10:29
GengulphusThanks for the response im still a little tad confused to your answer are you saying for example: that shares bought for £3500 and bed n isa (at profit) for £15000 wont be classed as part of your £11100 cgt allowance because its bed n isa.If yes to this. does this mean can still have a year to make the £11100 cgt allowance as an extra pfrofit on top of the £15000 that you bed n isa?Many thanks for your time TU
theuniversal
17/4/2015
17:38
Neither.

From the tax point of view, bed-and-ISAing is a sale of the shares outside the ISA plus transferring the proceeds into the ISA as a subscription plus a purchase inside the ISA, and there are no special tax interactions between those three parts - the only special interactions are things the broker does, like pushing it through quickly to minimise the chance of price movements against you between the sale and the purchase, and maybe giving you a reduced commission compared with separate trades. As a disposal outside a tax shelter, the sale creates a capital gain or loss for CGT purposes just as though it was on its own; the other two parts don't do anything CGTwise because they are a sterling cash transfer and a trade inside an ISA respectively.

So you work out the gain or loss (*) on the sale part and total it up with your other gains and losses for your CGT calculations just like any other sale, and the CGT allowance comes off that total just as it always does.

(*) Or in some cases, more than one gain or loss - e.g. if you partially repurchase outside the ISA within the next 30 days, the sale will be partially matched to that purchase under the 30-day rule, and the rest matched to the old 'Section 104 pool'.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
17/4/2015
16:36
GengulphusWhen bedding shares bought from a nominal acc. of the max isa of 15,000 to isa acc . Does the first 11,100 count as cgt allowance and the remaining 3900 is taxed or does is the whole 15,000 exempt from tax as you are bedding it across
theuniversal
14/4/2015
19:30
The calculators on www.CGTcalculator.com and option 2 on www.stonebanks.co.uk have been designed to provide the info required by the taxman.

I have submitted a paper return with the stonebanks calcs for a number of years.

david77
14/4/2015
17:34
My5harebox,

Am I correct in thinking that I now have until October 2015 to do this for the 2014/15 tax year and do you know if they require the information in a particular format, can I just send a spreadsheet ?

There are basically two deadlines: you have until 5 October 2015 (half a year after the end of the 2014/2015 tax year) to tell HMRC about owing CGT, and until 5 April 2019 (four years after the end of that tax year) to claim losses for that tax year. That leads to a rather peculiar situation if you wait until after 5 October 2015 to inform HMRC: because you haven't claimed the losses, you owe CGT for the 2014/2015 tax year - but you still have 3.5 years in which you can wipe out that CGT owed by claiming the losses...

I don't understand just how that situation gets resolved - in particular, whether a penalty gets assessed for owing CGT and not informing HMRC in time, and if so, whether then claiming the losses in order to no longer owe CGT results in the penalty being cancelled. But I don't see any point in trying to find out - just inform HMRC by 5 October 2015 and avoid any awkward questions! In fact, plan to inform them well before that deadline, just in case of unexpected delays...

As regards the format, I would do it by a printout if submitting on paper and a PDF if submitting online - I've a vague memory (which I might well be wrong about) that attachments to an online tax return are supposed to be PDFs. What I'm certain about is that PDFs are accepted for online returns, as that's what I use. I'm uncertain whether other formats are acceptable, as I haven't tried using them - and they might well not be because of the danger of them containing viruses.

Both printouts and PDFs can generally be generated easily from spreadsheets - if you have any difficulty, give details of your system and I'm pretty sure I or someone else will be able to tell you how.

The other thing I would suggest is that you use the "Computation Working Sheet" on page CGN 6 of as a guide to how much information the taxman is looking for. The actual format of that sheet is very wasteful of space - one can fit the same details of a straightforward acquisition and disposal of the same asset on to 1-2 lines of a spreadsheet, and in my experience corresponding details of something more complicated don't take up all that many more lines if thought out carefully. So I wouldn't try to copy that sheet's actual format unless I had only a few, very straightforward computations to report, especially as page CGN 1 of the same link makes it clear that that sheet is not always suitable. But as a general guide to the level of detail the taxman is looking for, I think it's good.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
10/4/2015
02:01
Thanks for your excellent reply Gengulphus

Sadly I am inside the CGT allowance because of the net balance of losses against gains and on that basis from what you have explained it seem that I will need to send detail to HMRC. Also looks like I will probably be hit by the HMRC reflex response to fill in a self assessment tax return. :(

Am I correct in thinking that I now have until October 2015 to do this for the 2014/15 tax year and do you know if they require the information in a particular format, can I just send a spreadsheet ?

Cheers.

my5harebox
03/4/2015
19:34
I am a basic rate tax payer and do not normally send in a tax return.
This year although I am within allowable CGT (£11k) gross transactions are more than 44K.

I am not wanting to carry realised losses forwards so do you think I need to inform HMRC ?

Depends on why you're within the CGT allowance.

If you're within the CGT allowance because your total gains for the tax year are above the CGT allowance but you have enough losses for the tax year to reduce them to the CGT allowance or below, so that your net gains are within the CGT allowance, you're caught by the rule that you need to 'claim' losses in order to be able to use them to reduce gains at all. Since 'claiming' a loss basically just means informing HMRC about it, that means that you do have to inform HMRC about the situation.

Strictly speaking, I believe you only have to inform HMRC about the losses in that case, not the gains as well - but that will leave it unclear whether the losses are carried forward or not (if the losses are less than or equal to the gains, they're all used up reducing the gains and none of them are carried forward; if the losses are greater than the gains, the excess losses are carried forward). My guess is that the taxman would respond to that or other uncertainty by asking you to submit a tax return... If you instead give details of all the gains and losses for the tax year, making it clear that the losses are less than the gains but enough to reduce the gains below the CGT allowance, so that you don't have any CGT to pay nor any CGT losses to carry forward, you get rid of that uncertainty and so are more likely to avoid being asked to fill in a tax return. (No promises, though!)

The alternative is that your total gains for the tax year without deducting losses are within the CGT allowance, so that you don't need to deduct losses in order to pay no CGT and so don't have a reason to want to claim losses (unless the losses are greater than the gains, allowing the excess losses to be carried forward - but you've indicated that isn't the case). If that's the case, I'm reasonably certain you don't need to inform HMRC. In particular, I believe the issue of disposal proceeds being over 4 times the CGT allowance is only relevant to people who are asked to fill in a tax return.

does seem to say otherwise, but it doesn't seem to match up to more technical HMRC material (in particular, with , which is about the obligations on people who are not sent a tax return) and it looks to me very much like a failure to transfer the information correctly when it was moved to the fairly new www.gov.uk website - see for my reasons for saying that. (Having said that, I'm not a tax professional, just an interested and experienced layman - which is why I say "reasonably certain" and "believe" rather than "certain" and "know" above.)

Gengulphus

gengulphus
03/4/2015
18:47
Pedr01,

The following quote is from the RNS "Any gain on the sale proceeds on the Disposal received by the Company at completion is not expected to be chargeable to tax as the Company is advised that it is likely to receive a substantial shareholding exemption pursuant to Schedule 7AC to the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992" ...

That's about taxation of the company itself by Corporation Tax, not about taxation of its shareholders. It took a bit of looking on www.legislation.gov.uk to make certain of that, as the site only has the original version of the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992 (or TCGA1992 for short), but an 'advanced search' for the keyword "Schedule 7AC" found the Finance Act 2002, whose Schedule 8 amended TCGA1992 by inserting a Schedule 7AC into it. It's quite a substantial Schedule, but one only has to read its paragraph 1(1) to see that it's about taxation of a company that holds shares in another company - see near the start of .

Also, what the RNS says about the return of capital is:

"Majority of cash proceeds from the Disposal to fund substantial return of capital to Shareholders, expected in the second half of 2015 - precise amount of any distribution to Shareholders has not yet been determined but the Directors expect that, in aggregate, the initial tranche will be up to £500 million (representing in excess of £1 per share); further cash distributions dependent on the deferred cash consideration, business disposals of non-core businesses and underlying performance;"

That's quite vague about both the amount and the timing of the return(s) of capital, making it pretty clear that details aren't yet known - about all that's known is that it's expected to be 3-9 months away, which means there's plenty of time for them to decide on the details.

That's also confirmed by a search for a shareholder circular. There is one, which can be found by Googling "Quindell investor relations" to find , then looking at that page's 'Key Documents' list to find "Proposed Sale of Professional Services Division and Notice of General Meeting", dated 30/03/15. Downloading that produces , a skim read of which says that it's calling a General Meeting of the company to get shareholder approval of the sale. Searching that pdf for "return" then finds similar wording in its section 2.3 on page 8 to that in the RNS, followed by:

"2.4 Timing of the return of capital to Shareholders

If the Disposal completes, the Company anticipates that, in order to make the return of capital to Shareholders, it will be necessary for the Company to undertake a reduction of capital as it is likely to have insufficient distributable reserves in order to return the level of capital expected by the Board to be returned. Consequently, the Board expects the reduction of capital and initial return of capital (which the Company will endeavour to structure in a tax efficient manner) to be made to Shareholders in the second half of 2015 following the completion of the audit of the Group’s accounts for the year ended 31 December 2014 and implementation of the relevant steps in order to effect a distribution. Depending on the cash proceeds of the Deferred Consideration Cases, the obligation to hold certain of the initial cash consideration in an escrow account (as further set out in paragraph 5 of Part 2), the sale of non-core assets and the ongoing performance of the retained Technology Division, further returns of capital will occur over time."

The "(which the Company will endeavour to structure in a tax efficient manner)" part of that in particular makes it clear that details of how the return of capital will be done and how it will affect shareholders taxwise are yet to be decided.

In short, I'm afraid all one can conclude right now about how it will affect you and other shareholders is that you need to await developments.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
03/4/2015
01:07
Gengulphus

Thank you for that. :) very helpful.

I am a basic rate tax payer and do not normally send in a tax return.
This year although I am within allowable CGT (£11k) gross transactions are more than 44K.

I am not wanting to carry realised losses forwards so do you think I need to inform HMRC ?

Reading Info and not sure because it seems to only be a requirement if you do self assessment.

Cheers

my5harebox
02/4/2015
16:22
Hi Gengulphus

The company is Quindell (QPP), which has suffered a catastrophic collapse in shareprice. The company is in the process of selling off it's Legal/Proffesional Services division leaving a Technology Division to concentrate on Insurance / Telematics related business.

My £cost base is higher than the proposed capital return.

The following quote is from the RNS "Any gain on the sale proceeds on the Disposal received by the Company at completion is not expected to be chargeable to tax as the Company is advised that it is likely to receive a substantial shareholding exemption pursuant to Schedule 7AC to the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992" ...

... and my first thought is that I should be able to reduce my cost base after the capital return.

Thanks loads


PETER

pedr01
02/4/2015
15:59
Yes, that looks right. The 11/11/14 sale matches first the 12/11/14 buy under the 30-day rule, realising a gain of £10k*4000/5000 - £5k = £3k, then the 14/11/14 buy also under the 30-day rule, realising neither a gain nor a loss (calculation £10k*1000/5000 - £2k = £0). Total gains for the tax year £3k.

Then the 6/4/15 sale matches the S104 pool consisting of the pre-20/7/14 S104 pool plus the 12/2/15 purchase, realising a loss of £15k - (£25k+£10k) = -£20k.

Provided of course that you don't then repurchase on 6/4/15 or any of the following 30 days.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
02/4/2015
13:01
Hi Gengulphus

From your previous explanations am I correct with the following:

20/7/14 hold 5000 ABC 104 pool of shares ave cost 25K
11/11/14 Stop loss triggers Sell 5000 ABC shares for 10k loss of 15K

12/11/14 buy back 4000 ABC shares for 5k
14/11/14 buy back 1000 ABC shares for 2k

So now hold 5000 ABC but 30 day rule means shares are matched and so
10k sale minus (5k + 2k) = 3k CGT profit for tax year 14/15

12/2/15 buy 10000 ABC shares for 10k

So now hold 15000 ABC shares for 10k + 25k = 35k

6/4/15 sell 15000 ABC shares for 15k so for CGT this is a loss 20k in 15/16 tax year.

Is this how it works.?

Seems difficult because most examples relate to making a profit, not a loss.

TIA.

Steve.

my5harebox
01/4/2015
10:37
Pedr01,

"Capital Return" is a rather general term used to describe various different schemes for companies to distribute cash to their shareholders. All or most of those schemes have CGT consequences, and many have Income Tax consequences as well - but those consequences depend a great deal on the details of the scheme.

The net result is that we cannot really answer your question usefully without knowing which Capital Return by which company you're talking about... Let us know and we may be able to help.

About the only thing I can say in the meantime is that the company usually has to produce a Shareholder Circular or similar document giving details of the Capital Return, usually makes the document available on the company website, and there is usually a taxation section somewhere in it. Might take a bit of digging through the website to find the document, and more digging through its wording to work out what it's saying about taxation, though!

Gengulphus

gengulphus
30/3/2015
07:29
Does anyone know the tax implications of a Capital Return ???
pedr01
28/3/2015
20:36
Bookmarked. Excellent thread.
chemistdude
28/3/2015
13:54
Can anyone help me please. My 91 year old Dad will have to pay CGT for the first time ever this year. I know what to do with his shares sales but he also sold a fund Fidelity multi asset strategic OEIC which he purchased for £25000 four years ago.
Over the last four tax years he has been sent a tax voucher for this fund for dividends reinvested into the fund giving a gross, tax deducted and net figure. He has not been paid any cash dividends. The net figure over the four years totals £552. The number of units he owns in the fund has not changed over the four years. For CGT purposes is his cost £25000 or £25552?

Many thanks

bunlop
02/3/2015
18:10
I had Salamander shares and the company has been taken over by Ophir; I have received no cash, only Ophir shares. How do I represent this in the cgt calculator, i.e. what letter or letters do I put in the first column?
alanuk2
23/2/2015
15:59
Thanks Gengulphus. I'll do some reading
david77
23/2/2015
14:32
I have some Angle plc (AGL) shares and have applied for some under their open offer. The new shares will come with EIS tax relief so I will not include them on my list of share deals for CGT calcs. If I subsequently sell some AGL shares, can I choose whether the shares sold were EIS shares or not?

I don't think so - there appear to be special share identification rules for EIS shares: see and the pages it links to. Don't expect me to explain them, though - there look to be a lot of interactions with various reliefs that I at best only half understand!

And is are the CGT calcs for non-EIS shares affected?

The same link indicates there is no pooling of EIS shares and other matching rules don't apply, which I think indicates that the CGT calculations for non-EIS shares happen independently apart from the issue of whether it is EIS or non-EIS shares that have been sold. I.e. I think basically no, the CGT calculations for non-EIS shares are not affected.

Gengulphus

gengulphus
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