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Caffyns Share Discussion Threads
Showing 401 to 425 of 425 messages
yes, you're right: I was only right in part. Thankyou for the correction.|
|I think you're wrong, and right, CJohn. There were three categories of prefs of which the most significant was the "2nd preference shares", three million in total, which I believe are all held by the Caffyn family. These were effectively not touched in the changes and give the family overall control of the voting rights.... except, if you read the rules for shares on the premium list of the LSE, they lose the right to vote on certain major issues. Although it's not very well spelled out in the rules, I think this would disqualify these 2nd prefs from having a vote on a takeover bid.
That pleased me when it occurred, as I felt that cfyn were so undervalued that one of the big dealerships which was under represented in cfyn's part of the UK might be tempted to make a bid. Since brexit, I think that has become highly unlikely because of the predominance of VW brands, which is disappointing.
PS. IIrc they actually only issued 2m of the authorised 3m 2nd prefs, but the purpose of them was very clearly one of control - they paid a dividend of just £12k / year.|
|Hi NTV, best not to rely on memory. Check the balance sheet for yourself. There are 812k preference shares left. These reamining preference have been stripped of voting rights. The compensation was a 1% increase in interest paid.
It would be best if these preference shares were bought out. 425k were bought out last year.
I agree with you that the directors pay themselves too much - not an uncommon problema in small companies - but the preference shares are only a very minor issue.|
|you forgotten the large lot of almost 2m from memory. these have equal voting rights
what will the family demand for those?
bet it won't be £1
and don't forget the fees on top and profits will fall this year as well|
|812k left of preference shares. A likely premium to buy out these shares will be about 400k sterling. So that sum can be subtracted from the total asset value of the company. Very small beer.|
|Assets are not the same as in 2004. Did you mean something else?
The preference shares should be bought off, I agree. That makes financial sense. The company bought out 425k last year at a small Premium to par. This really doesn't seem to me to be such a major issue given that there are only 812 k left.It's just a form of debt. This is particularly so as the preference shares have been stripped of their voting rights.|
|no comment about trading from the agm then?
the company appears not to want inform shareholders of current sales etc|
|you have forgotten about about all the pref shares on the balance sheet. the directors dictate at what price these are repurchased
one lot yields 11% but the bulk yield 6%
this is a two tier share structure which is controlled by directors
prefs are valued at par it seems on the balance sheet and at mkt prices
maybe that will change at the next balance sheet date
also very old fashioned to have pension owning a chunk of share capital
share price and assets the same as 2004|
|When you add back the revaluation surplus of £9.5m and the £5m goodwill on the Land Rover sale the net assets come to £41m. Divide by 2.8m shares and you come to a nav of just under £15 per share. At some stage the family will release this but it may be a while during which the dividend yield of 4% is some compensation.|
|More importantly, it would be beneficial to tangible asset value per share.|
|Everything else being equal, buying back shares at this level would be beneficial to per share earnings.|
|The preferences are correctly included in non-current liabilities.
Why is buying freeholds and developing "running on the spot"?|
|why not, that is the cost of the debt
ordinary share price does affect the balance as the caffyns' pension fund owns a lot of ord shares|
|The prefs should not be included in the balance sheet at the most recent buyout price, just as the ordinary shares are not be included at the most recent price they have changed hands in the stock market.|
|not sure remaining prefs have been valued on the balance sheet in the correct way either
because surely they should be valued as a liability at there most recent buyout price because in therory this is the min price holders will accept except we don't know what price the 2m 6% prefs shares could be bought for
maybe a 50% premium
so this would create a liabilty of £3m instead of £2m
without associated costs again|
|but that doesn't grow the company because it is just like running on the spot|
Yes, you're right. Trading at such a discount to book, it makes obvious sense to buy in their own shares, the blessed preferences included.
I wasn't aware that they were thinking of acquiring dealerships. The modus opreandi seems to be buy freehold property and then develop.|
|I would like the company to give their broker instructions to buy any available shares at the current share price which would effectively put a floor under it. IMV it would be a low risk earnings enhancing strategy. Another of my investments appears to be doing this and retiring shares which is benefiting those happy to remain holders.|
|i was referring to possible acquistions
anything bought on a higher pe than about 6.5 will be earnings dilutive straight away unless loads of costs can be stripped
though could be hidden by the so called mkt rent from LR property
buying in its own shares would be a better option but not the skies the limit price, lets make up a price on pref shares like the last one
if as according to the board they are so undervalued surely redeeming the prefs
creates value to the ords boosting the value of those by the equilivant probably
more. board gains as they own most of the shares and so do smaller holders for once|
|You're right, there can always be more information given in accounts. But it's not difficult for us to work out the effects of the Land Rover sale in any case.
I'm sorry I don't understand your remark re a dealership prepared to exit on a PE of 7 or lower. What are you referring to? Possible acquisitions?|
unless they can find a dealership who is prepared to exit on a pe ratio of 7 or lower then they going earnings dilutive
most companies produce a profroma balance sheet and give a breakdown of profits/losses but not old fashioned caffyns with its outdated shareholder structure|
|Hi NTV, the Land Rover deal completed on the 29th April, after the balance sheet date of 31st March. The annual report is merely a snapshot of the balance on that date.
We all agree the board is grossly self-indulgent. I may attend the next company meeting and ask a few questions.|
|It cannot be argued that this a steady as it goe's share but the eye wateringly high board recumeration is a great drag on proformance over the longer term. I'm not sure the value will be outed in my lifetime.
|strange they didn't show the land rover business in the balance as an asset sold but monies not received as it was a known valuation
the cost £136k above the premium paid seemed a heavy price for buying back the some of the prefs.
i love the way the caffyn family dictates the price paid for the prefs to cancel them and its interest rates paid on the remaining ones
i know it upset one major shareholder.
they talk of expansion but with pref share noose round its neck there is little chance of institutional shareholders joining in.
buying another dealer on a lower rating than caffyns (so as not to be earnings diluting) is just a la la mind set.
still yield is good and asset backing is good. the property let to sainsbury as this increases rental income. that along the rent from the land rover dealership is good news and should part cover finance costs next year|
|Post year end events show they were turned down on planning for the newly acquired sites at Angmering but counsel have advised them to appeal. Presumably they have a better use for the Audi site at Worthing and if the appeal is successful they will be able to unlock that value. I am still of the opinion that at some stage the Caffyn family will want to sell. Yesterday Marshalls made a big acquisition in the south of England. This share is seriously undervalued, with significant asset backing, and at some stage shareholders will be rewarded. In the meantime a dividend of 3.6% covered more than 4 times is better than anything you can get from a deposit account and means that this is a share you can sleep easy with throughout any market fluctuations.|