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[mcbeanburger] 07/2/2017 22:12

Trustless block chain is the solid gold and can't be replaced. Btc can.

[mcbeanburger] 07/2/2017 22:08

Spud standby my statement. Btc won't work with small fees and therefore not worth using for small or micro payments. Hence two tier of coins. Means won't be used in third world.If btc doesn't adapt something will take its place. Enuff said.

[spadman] 07/2/2017 21:34

you are correct the misleading article is from 2014

[chinahere] 07/2/2017 20:05

This article is old but as far as I understand it there is significant risk of a large miner or a sophisticated outfit using miners as 'bots' to generate false transactions:

www.extremetech.com/extreme/184427-one-bitcoin-group-now-controls-51-of-total-mining-power-threatening-entire-currencys-safety

I guess it could even already be happening surreptitiously?

[spadman] 07/2/2017 19:13

alexx RE ledger

To clarify, my point is this. If a distributed ledger can go out of fashion, or be superseded there would be zero value to using such a ledger.

As an example lets take the Land Registry, we have all laid claim to parcels of land, the ownership of said parcels of land have been transferred umpteen times but we have an up to date record of who owns what. The technology may have changed but the ownership records on the registry or deeds have continuity, we know who owns what slice of the pie.

Along comes a landless mcbean, late to the party he decides he wants a new record of who owns what with him included, he cant afford or doesn't want to pay the market rate for land so has started his own system. It wont work due to network effect, hardley anyone will take any notice of mcbeans so called records... but if it did work what gives you any confidence mcbeans ledger wont go the same way in a few years time?

[spadman] 07/2/2017 18:49

alexx its 51% of mining power, and i didnt say it would fail for any reason least of all the ledger??

random hashing power "difficulty" has NEVER fallen despite all the halvenings, bitcoin goes up hence the smaller rewards are worth more. Then in 140 years when rewards run dry there are always the feez get it?

[random] 07/2/2017 18:03

As I see it the value of a coin is reflected in the hashing power of it's mining network ... that's why there are big problems if the supply dries up (the network hashing falls to zero, and the currency becomes increasingly illiquid and volatile, all BTC miners will have to switch coins). Perhaps there will be a hard fork to prevent this from happening? Other coins, such as XMR, have a much larger limit (which will never be met). (... but it suffers from even more ledger bloat).

[alexx] 07/2/2017 13:12

SPADman - you are saying that if bitcoin fails you already know in advance that it is the fault of the ledger. Why?

The ledger is a component part of bitcoin, not the other way round. When a mechanism fails you only know that a (component) has failed, not which one.

---

You're right about the 51%, my mistake, it is a question of 51% of what? Very difficult to analyse, just guesswork really.

[spadman] 07/2/2017 12:56

random you're missing my point, Bitcoin is the longest running most secure ledger. Should it go to the way side that would only prove it was never any good as a ledger.

I dont think that will happen due to network effect, and there is no reason bitcoin cant adapt any new tech so long as it maintains the blockchain.

The idea a distributed ledger is useful but we might rip them up and start new ones ad infinitum is contradictory. A ledger is not useful if it goes out of date.

[random] 07/2/2017 11:37

Spad, all alt coins have a "permanent" ledger. Ledgers can't be used to predict if another coin will topple BTC.

BTC has it's flaws (the tx backlog being perhaps the worst), and the supply has a hard limit on it. Once it becomes impossible to mine it will become increasingly illiquid. This will restrict it's usage as a practical currency.

[spadman] 07/2/2017 09:45

PS wallets or size of wallets have nothing to do with a 51% attack, which is of course only theoretical.

[spadman] 07/2/2017 09:44

alex without bitcoin there is no incentive for the market to provide a secure blockchain, unless you are thinking of a private blockchain which in reality would be nothing more than an inefficient database.

weve discussed alt coins, its possible... unlikely and counter productive. If an altcoin took the place of bitcoin that would only prove the blockchain isnt a permanent ledger, which of course is the whole point of it. By "toppling" bitcoin the alt coin in question would have also demonstrated the network effect doesnt exist, ergo it too will be "toppled"

carry on

[alexx] 07/2/2017 09:26

china

I'm not sure what you mean. All coins must end up in wallets and the number of coins being produced is now only about 0.4% of the total each month. So no danger there.

Of course one person can own many wallets so it may be that someone owns more than one of the top hundred wallets. Anyone know more on this?

SPAD
"blockchain cant work without bitcoin" - no, it's the other way round. Generally I believe McB is wrong but not in this case. I believe bitcoin is too far ahead to be caught by other coins, for a year at least, if ever.

McB

No, that chart doesn't mean anything either. I'm not claiming bitcoin will last forever but if forced I am inclined to think that I will die first. Everything is always open to question and reserve the right to change my mind but at the moment my policy remains buy and hold. Long term I see gold, silver, bitcoin up and fiat down and that is what I remain positioned for, with relatively little trading.

[chinahere] 07/2/2017 08:42

alexx - yes the largest wallet may be small but aren't the miners concentrated?

[spadman] 07/2/2017 08:07

Please don't start parroting that tired mainstream meme blockchain not bitcoin, blockchain cant work without bitcoin. litecoin is not silver to bitcoins gold, keep up.

[mcbeanburger] 06/2/2017 23:28

spad - I know you are fully committed on this - but its not a given btc will prevail over some other coin. it has to sorted out the tech for it too be fully adapted as a global currency. currently some transactions are sitting in limbo for weeks. might be the case that btc co-exists with another like ltc. I will remain open minded to the end.

blockchain on the other hand is solid gold.

alexx - agree for the moment its an excellent investment vehicle. but like I say to spad price expansion has a limited life and have to know when to get off.

this might be a better chart:

[alexx] 06/2/2017 20:44

chinahere - I never feel quite 100% sure of it either but I think it is just a feeling related to the fact that it is still very new. Biggest wallet is 0.77%.

McB

It's a limited supply currency, like gold and silver, less established but more flexible to transact.

[chinahere] 06/2/2017 19:06

I just fear that someday someone gets control of 51%+ and the trust is lost.

[spadman] 06/2/2017 13:13

Afternoon Mcbean.

To some extent I understand why you call it a tech but again its not a company like Marconi, The Great Western Railway Company, bubblemania.com.

Obviously companies go bust CEOs resign, shares are diluted, but in the case of techs like "trains", the internet, radio waves, the wheel etc the tech remains becomes widely adopted and integral to our collective "lifestyle".

But bitcoin is more than just the tech which enables it to work, its a ledger, its superior to double entry bookeeping hence its perfect money and it can adapt as the tech adapts.

The reason bitcoin is here to stay is because its a permanent ledger, there is no legitimate reason to start a new ledger other than as a sand box for future BIPs.

Bitcoin and its underlying blockchain is a distributed trustless permanent ledger, its here to stay just like the Wheel and just like Gold.

[mcbeanburger] 06/2/2017 01:27

spad its a tech and phenomenon. what more is it? a lifestyle?

not easy to write sentences that say it all.... glad you thought so.

[alexx] 05/2/2017 21:05

Added more into spread hour or two ago. Also put about half of previous s/b profits into real bitcoins a week or two ago.

McB
"if you can't see that most charts move in a sine wave pattern then charts aren't for you"

Says it all.

[spadman] 04/2/2017 23:34

when did people buy "trains" "at the top"? you just cant grasp what bitcoin is, can you?

[mcbeanburger] 04/2/2017 20:48

trains - my point it ran its course and it took peeps buying at the top a generation to recover their loses.

my guess btc will be fully cooked in 5 years or less. read fully adapted or another coin will take its place. it needs to get config changes in order for it to be useful for wider adaption.

[spadman] 04/2/2017 17:48

Its not silly to hold an investment that consistently outperforms every other asset class by an order of magnitude, especially during its adoption phase.

You obviously enjoy paying spreads and fees trying to guess which way the price moves next, that seems silly especially when you don't have a clue which way the market is going to move tomorrow or the next day.

I didn't answer you question because since 1870 there has been no way to invest in the overall Global value of "trains" but if there had been I wouldn't have been in and out more often than Jimmy Savile in a morgue, as you are.

I hope you beat the house and your gambling doesn't lose you too much money, but for me Id rather hodl for another 10 years ;)

[mcbeanburger] 04/2/2017 15:12

didn't answer the question and I didn't say it was going way.

silly