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PSDL Phoenix Spree Deutschland Limited

151.00
-0.50 (-0.33%)
28 Mar 2024 - Closed
Delayed by 15 minutes
Share Name Share Symbol Market Type Share ISIN Share Description
Phoenix Spree Deutschland Limited LSE:PSDL London Ordinary Share JE00B248KJ21 SHS NPV
  Price Change % Change Share Price Bid Price Offer Price High Price Low Price Open Price Shares Traded Last Trade
  -0.50 -0.33% 151.00 151.50 154.00 155.50 154.50 155.50 109,971 16:35:08
Industry Sector Turnover Profit EPS - Basic PE Ratio Market Cap
Real Estate Investment Trust 26.29M -15.44M -0.1681 -9.19 141.87M
Phoenix Spree Deutschland Limited is listed in the Real Estate Investment Trust sector of the London Stock Exchange with ticker PSDL. The last closing price for Phoenix Spree Deutschland was 151.50p. Over the last year, Phoenix Spree Deutschland shares have traded in a share price range of 124.50p to 223.00p.

Phoenix Spree Deutschland currently has 91,827,360 shares in issue. The market capitalisation of Phoenix Spree Deutschland is £141.87 million. Phoenix Spree Deutschland has a price to earnings ratio (PE ratio) of -9.19.

Phoenix Spree Deutschland Share Discussion Threads

Showing 726 to 749 of 750 messages
Chat Pages: 30  29  28  27  26  25  24  23  22  21  20  19  Older
DateSubjectAuthorDiscuss
22/3/2024
16:13
MIGO commentary-
Despite strong demand for rental housing in the
German capital the shares continue to drift. There is little
demand for this asset class amongst UK investors and it
seems likely that the trust will lose next year’s continuation
vote.

davebowler
15/3/2024
13:11
Ah, you could be right.

...the RNS does not help the reader by saying that the property was bought "recently" but then saying it was in 2022 !...for most PIs, 2022 does not merit the word "recently".

------

Selling price was 2.9% lower than the purchase cost but a number of costs have been intentionally omitted, to intentionally hide the facts from the reader & from shareholders, which reflects badly on the BoD imo

- lawyer cost for the purchase
- notary cost for the purchase
- German stamp duty tax or similar tax on the purchase. 200k€?
- interest cost of the money used for the purchase & own it for ~17 months.
340k€ ?
- owner's annual property tax for 2023 & 2024 (assuming that the owner on January 1st has to pay this tax, I assume there is one in German). Valuable flat so a biggish cost.
- ~17 months of charges from the building (to pay for maintainence, electricity, insurance, management etc). Big flat so a big cost each month, cost is per M2). 20k€ ?
- insurance costs. 6000€

Selling
- agent cost
- 1% to PSDL's property manager. ~48k€
- lawyer
- notary

Looks like it was perhaps never rented out.

-------

Perhaps 600k€ -800k€ loss ?? on 4.8m€.
A very high % investment loss for a property company in ~17months. Do that X times & you'll see the NAV fall hard & the share price.

Oh, that is what has happened !

smithie6
15/3/2024
09:22
Smithie, Agree prices have moved against them. On the point about Donaustrasse, I concluded that the RNS was poorly written and meant the low price reflected the buyer would need to do the refurb. So it is then just a modest loss as stated. But could be wrong.
jonesy100
15/3/2024
08:51
....company intentionally not reporting the truth or the real facts to the market

For example, with this condominium the company has made a notable loss.

The property had costs/taxes for its purchase, "significant costs for refurbishment", and costs/taxes (eg. lawyer, notary, selling agent) for selling it, & interest on the money used to buy/own it. And there is also a 1% payment to the property manager.
So, the real loss is much higher than the claimed 2.9% loss.

Also, it shows in black & white that the market has moved against the company. Prices imo have fallen. Otherwise that sale would have been at a higher price than the cost price, after the high investment in refurbishment.
And the RNS mentions that another dwelling was sold, at lower than the book price.

.... perhaps these directors can not be trusted, intentionally misleading the market imo, trying to give the impression of a 2.6% loss on this property when in reality it is much higher.
And added to the mess up of losing 4-5m€ by backing out of just one contract/project one gets the impression that they are not very good at doing property !!
The chart also says they are not very good at their job.

"The Company has notarised the sale of Donaustrasse, Neukoln for €4.8m, a value of €2,249 per sqm or a 2.6 per cent discount to the purchase price. The property was recently acquired (notarised for purchase in September 2022) and the sale price reflects the significant investment required to modernise the property."

smithie6
14/3/2024
18:38
It is domiciled in Jersey. There is a Jersey - Germany DTA but cannot see anything very helpful in it. So German taxpayer could be daft to this security.
elbrus55
14/3/2024
18:23
Reits can be horribly tax inefficient for many people. I would never buy one outside a tax efficient wrapper / or for an individual who is resident in a country without a favorable DTA with the UK/DE.It simply may not make sense for some Directors to buy?
elbrus55
14/3/2024
11:18
..indeed

(Years ago I recall warning people about investing in a new property company, I think it was, that was coming to mkt & doing a big fund raise
....its IPO document promised 8% return in each of the first 3 years....

PIs were hammering on the door to invest

People failed to see that if you invested 100p in shares, the IPO process took 10% (5% of that to brokers for people investing), 8% times 3 years = 24%, & say 3%/yr running cost for the first 3 years, with say 6%/yr income

So 100p became 100-10-24-9+18= 75p left as NAV/share in property. If shares at 25% discount to NAV then share price phps 56p.
While if inflation was 5%/year, then the 100p needs to be worth ~117p to have same value.
So, after 3 years the investors has 56p of shares & 24p in divis (paid from IPO cash, not from rental income !) = 80p

But the value needs to be 117p to have kept up with inflation...ie. a notable loss.

The lesson ?
Run away from IPOs that promise a high Divi for first few years....since it is probably just a carrot being dangled on a stick
...& the investor is the stupid donkey !!!!

smithie6
14/3/2024
11:15
One rule of thumb I use for filtering reits is to see if insiders buy any of their own shares. If they don’t back up their own business ideas why should I? If they don’t invest any of their own money there is a good chance they are in it to line up their own pocket at the expense of the shareholders. While this is not bullet-proof it will help you to avoid the ones like psdl, home and labs etc.
riskvsreward
14/3/2024
11:02
Interesting, I came to a similar view on the UK REITs.

What appear relatively small management charges, actually eat up a huge percentage of the net income. Can be hidden, sometimes for years, by capital appreciation. But once the NAVs turn down, it becomes obvious.

Some are taking 50% of net income a year - regardless of whether it's a good year or a bad year.

Good example of a dodgy one is the now-gone LXI - something like £1bn of assets, charging £14m/year management, but what was the net income on that £1bn?

Heads they win, tails you lose, true of much of the investment management industry. But somehow feels more heinous in REITs.

spectoacc
14/3/2024
10:54
Will any of the supposedly high NAV/share at PSDL ever end up in shareholders's hands

Or

Just slowly slide off the table in to the hands of Qsix, year by year.
That sadly is what has happened at many dubious listed property companies.
Like hanging a carrot in front of a donkey.....it is tempting, but eating the carrot never actually happens !
=======

Personally, I always like to look at what % of the rental income is used by the people charging to collect & administer it. If it is too high a cut then I just think it stinks & I avoid the shares.

If the rental income at any property company just gets eaten on route then clearly shareholders, at the very end of the table, will never get any of it to eat.

smithie6
13/3/2024
19:27
HugePants
You did a good deal buying this morning and I would have joined you if Barclays allowed me to do so.
I note that trading by volume has been high by PSDL standards since Feb 23 this year.No surprise.
I have to say that I had never heard of the Epra index.

cerrito
13/3/2024
17:29
I have consolidated some numbers based on the available full year accounts, between 2015 and 2022:

Total rental income: 141m

Total fees paid to Qsix: 80.5m = 57% of every euro of rent received.

You wonder why there is no cash left after paying the mortgages and other costs? You wonder why there is no cash left to distribute a dividend? How is this level of fees justifiable on any level?

Total fees paid to the "third party" property managers (the people actually doing the work): 8.9m = a reasonable 6% of rental income

These figures excludes 2023/4 numbers.

June is when their management contract renews for another five years. Whatever the performance of the fund, they will take their fees. Theft.

cwebb1
13/3/2024
17:22
The board is out of its depth. Today's RNS makes no sense whatsoever. So its due to be removed from the index next week but the share price decline is now suddenly explained by this?

No one believe the property valuations. In the article posted below from February Hilton says that the prices are unachievable in the market. I.e they are holding them in their books at artificially inflated values. They clearly have a very cozy relationship with their valuers. They have probably maintained the valuations at an inflated level to avoid triggering any loan covenants.

The "independent" board is nothing of the sort. Robert Hingley it transpires was indeed handpicked by Qsix and is a close personal friend of Michael Weston, a Qsix partner. The rest of the board members all seem to work for the fund's jersey post office box administrators. In total, the board has been paid 1.5 million between 2015 and 2022 according to the accounts. They have no incentive to stop the gravy train. Almost 190k a year for four or five suits to attend four board meetings a year. Nice work if you can get it.

cwebb1
13/3/2024
16:15
Aah, so the Board says this is all down to a technicality around reweighting of the index. It goes on to say the share price at 67% discount to EPRA NTA does not reflect the value of the underlying assets. YOU WOULD THINK ON THAT BASIS THAT ANY SENSIBLE BOARD MEMBER OR DIRECTOR WOULD BE FILLING THEIR BOOTS. Go figure.
carlopig1
13/3/2024
11:51
Yep, bouncing nicely, should see it back to 160s, GLA
lawson27
13/3/2024
10:32
I bought back some based on this mornings update


Statement Re Share Price movement

The Board of Phoenix Spree Deutschland Limited (LSE: PSDL.LN), the UK listed investment company specialising in Berlin residential real estate, notes the recent movement in the Company's share price.

The board believes that this reflects index reweighting ahead of the removal of the Company from the FTSE EPRA index, which will become effective on Monday 18th March. The Board can confirm that it is not aware of any adverse material change relating to the Company's trading, which remains consistent with the business update issued on 7 February, highlights of which are reiterated below.

The Board considers the current share price, which values the Company at a 67 per cent discount to the most recently published EPRA NTA, and implies a value per square metre of approximately half the cost of construction, does not reflect the value of the underlying assets within the Portfolio........

hugepants
12/3/2024
23:52
Maybe, but that's not something anyone can force.

Any activist/PE outfit could move in here and try to force a liquidation.

34adsaddsa
12/3/2024
20:55
Isn't there also a chance one of the big outfits like Vonovia, Deutsche Wohnen etc make an offer?
No dividend is an obvious negative for me. It's almost expected when buying a property stock.

hugepants
12/3/2024
18:40
Best case scenario is someone comes in and forces a liqiduation.
34adsaddsa
12/3/2024
16:43
The fundamentals of the business are just dire. There is simply no cash flow. Qsix are the biggest burn of cash. Coupled with lousy underperformance spanning multiple years. Lets be clear - they benefitted from interest rates going down and stopped working hard as the 'valuation' kept going higher. Now that's in reverse... The departure of one stuffed shirt seems to be connected in timing at least with the development project they pulled out of at a cost to PSDL shareholders of 4/4.5m.
cwebb1
12/3/2024
16:40
I bought at 390 and sold out at 280 on £100k investment. Hard lesson learnt. It would be remise of me to say, that more people have lost money on this than made any. Except for Qsix who get paid a %age fee of a fictitious NAV. They will be doing everything in their power imaginable to hold on to the management contract for this - the next time it comes up is June this year. They have removed the prospectus for the fund from the public domain to prevent or slow down anyone who wants to look into the articles. Shameful.
cwebb1
12/3/2024
16:37
TRY's involvement alone is a good reason to avoid it :)
spectoacc
12/3/2024
16:33
But like so many others, it clearly can go lower than you might normally think.

I doubt Marcus P-M at TRY can single handedly support the price!

cousinit
12/3/2024
16:30
Market seems to be taking the view that the Berlin apartment market will continue to be moribund even with the prospect of rates falling
cousinit
Chat Pages: 30  29  28  27  26  25  24  23  22  21  20  19  Older

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